Just Another Sad Day In The Life Of A Ford Dealer Technician
 

Well, folks. I'm sure most of you probably don't know me very well, since I rarely post on 6.4L forums. But since this story applies specifically to a 6.4L that's in my bay right now, I thought it appropriate to post here.

Here's the story. One of the service advisors receives a phone call from a customer to arrange having his truck towed to our shop. The complaint goes, "I was driving along and all of a sudden the truck took off as if the gas pedal was held to the floor and a large white cloud of smoke came out the back of the pipe, and flames shot out". So the short version of the story is, the truck ran away on him due to high pressure fuel system leakage into the crankcase and being sucked into the intake through the crankcase vent, causing the unrequested increase in engine speed, and then its failure.

When the truck arrived on my doorstep, on the hook, the truck was in a state that it would not start (nor was I about to put too much effort into getting it to start, given the chain of events that had just occured prior to its arrival). I observed the appearance of the tailpipes had a white ash like colour to them with a little tinge of bluing, unlike the usual black sooty appearance that one usually sees on the inside of a diesel. The wiring harness to all three EGT sensors, along with the DPFP sensor were burnt completely to a crisp. It got so hot there, that the underside of the cab where the DPF is situated now has a nice whitish imprint. Needless to say, this vehicle exhibitted a pretty catastrophic thermal event.

As soon as I managed to get the vehicle into my bay to commence diagnostics, I notice a grocery list of codes that come up (as expected). I drained about 28 litres of fuel/engine oil mixture from both the charge air cooler and the crankcase.The most important code P0219, which is set when the PCM detects an engine speed increase beyond 4000 RPMs for more than three seconds, which only further confirms what the customer told me (if the appearance of the exhaust aftertreatment isn't obvious enough already). Here is where all the BS begins. With an event like this, I am definitely going to be starting a "paper trail" to cover my bases. I check OASIS, obtain maintenance records, every bit of information that I can possibly think of, to submit as needed. After doing ALL tests as instructed by Ford Hot-Line (our "go to" life line), and disassembling the vehicle down to the block (three of eight cylinders are low on compression), now is where the "cat and mouse" circus begins. On any kind of major repair that is warrantable, we are required to submit a request for prior approval (as most of you likely know). In short, I have spent almost this entire week having the request returned in order to provide FoMoCo with further information and pictures requested.

This vehicle is a construction truck (of which the customer has couple other that are identical) used soley for work purposes, NOT a "***** extender" with a tuner and doodads. In the short term of ownership, the customer has maintained it and provided maintenance records per our request. Any previous maintenance done by the previous owner is unknown as the vehicle was purchased used by the current owner. He has brought it to my shop with a very legitimate concern and is now getting screwed by mother Ford. And why? Because the truck now requires the entire exhaust aftertreatment system along with the entire underframe wiring harness replaced, along with a complete new high pressure fuel system as well as a short block AT THE VERY LEAST. After crunching some numbers, it seems most cost effective to replace with a drop-in engine assembly (which INCLUDES everything in the high pressure fuel system as well as reduces labour expenses needed to install).

The point of this post? Those of you out there with tuners intent on bringing your truck in for warranty work will hopefully understand the "hoops" us dealer techs face, when trying to get any type of repair approved. In the meantime, this truck has cost me week's pay, due to tying up my bay with the cab raised, and the engine almost completely gutted short of removal. All this because, mother Ford wants to do everything in its power to play the "I'm not paying" game to the customer. Yet I, the service advisor and the service manager are going to be the poor sorry folks out here, having to explain to the poor customer that Ford doesn't want to pay to repair his truck. As of this writing, the cab has been lowered and secured using four of the eight bolts to secure it to the frame, and will be pushed outside the shop to grow plants under so that the customer can scrap it out with Ford.

Experiences like this are what sometimes make me want to re-evaluate whether or not it is even worth it to continue wrenching on Ford diesels anymore. Now, don't get me wrong. I STILL love wrenching, and STILL love Ford vehicles (as I always will), but the politics, the BS, the cat and mouse circus and all the game playing really wears me down!!!

SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT, NEXT TIME YOU BRING YOUR VEHICLE IN NEEDING A MAJOR WARRANTY REPAIR.

Sad.....really sad.......I feel for you, buddy and the owners hope fully Ford will fess up and realize the mistake!

So Ford is not wanting to fix it because why? I didn't quite see where they were denying it as of yet.

I certainly understand the difficulties. I would not want to put someone thru the ringer unjustly.

I will also say...for those that read this posting, that although the issue above may have happened all of the sudden I would always advise checking all of your fluids weekly. You might just catch some creeping oil level.

How many trucks with tuners and DPF/CAT delete's have you worked on? What were the problems that the tuners caused? I would assume, that Ford would secretly be happy for tuners and DPF delete systems. No more DPF replacements or cleaning, no more harsh regens on the motor. Some here have also stated, that their local Ford mechanic said that tuning and removing the DPF is the best thing you can do to these engines?

Sorry for you week man, that just tells me that even if your truck is bone stock that you can still be denied warranty work. So I am glad my truck is gutted and tuned. That's what lawyers are for, and I have a commuter vehicle just in case the ***** ever hits the fan with my truck...

Because of the large amount of money involved to repair this vehicle. You are correct in stating that Ford has NOT denied the claim YET. But if I know Ford, they are going to tell me to put it back together with Band-Aid and Super Glue and ship. Then, when it comes back a week or month later (that's if it even makes it out of the shop) needing to be torn apart, they're going to want ME to fix it again on MY dime. This is the game they are playing. Not going to happen this time around. If they do in fact deny it, I'm not touching ONE more bolt on it. I'm not about to relinquish control of the repair process to someone who's more concerned about the cost than my reputation.

Well, those of you reading this should now understand what you face, God forbid your 6.4L experiences this chain of event. I will say though, overall the 6.4L trucks have relatively few issues compared to the 6.0L (other than requiring changing the radiator with every oil change), but when things inside them break, they break BIG!!!!

Oh yes. We all know how 6.4L engines just love to "grow" engine oil, don't we?

its not that ford does or does not want to fix it.... Its the circle jerk we get ran threw day in and day out.

Being completely honest with you. I have wrenched on NONE that have DPF/CAT delete systems with tuners on them, so I have no problem admitting that I have ZERO experience with them. Perhaps it would be the best thing one can do to one's 6.4L truck in order to rid oneself of the horrible fuel economy and the harsh regens that go along with the having the exhaust aftertreatment systems. HOWEVER, in doing this, what laws are we violating here? What kind of risk do we put ourselves to (if we live in a region where vehicle emissions inspections are a routine)? What is the penalty for being caught operating a motor vehicle with the emission controls tampered with? Understand, I am NOT saying to do it or not. But I do hear you LOUD and CLEAR.

It is sad to imagine that owners of these trucks NEED to have a backup vehicle, should such a catastrophic event like this ever happen.

Sad as it is to say, I can't believe there are some out there who will pay RETAIL to have repairs done even when they're still within their warranty period, only because they can't afford the down time involved with all the game playing.

out here we call those guy's Oil field workers.

Thank you for your honest opinion Sir, and it's coming from one who works on these trucks for a living. As far as being legal or not, well that's the chance we take. If I lived in CA, then maybe I would be concerned but I will never live there so I have nothing to worry about. Yes the EPA mandated the new diesel emissions, but it's a double edged sword. Diesels run much cleaner with the DPF, but use more fuel. So its either contribute to global warming or use more oil? Hmmmmm, that's a hard one to choose!!! Or maybe I will just buy a Nissan Leaf!!!

Now that I think about it, if they were tuned and needed warranty work the owner probably put everything back to stock. So you would have never known if it was tuned or not right?

I had a major repair (EGR Cooler / Oil Cooler / EGR Valve) done recently. Bought the 04 truck used, until the major it ran good. I bought after market warranty not Ford. It also sat in the bay for a week while the warranty company made a decision - required pics etc. A little annoying to be w/o vehicle. I don't have any mods on the truck and i don't think the previous owner had any to my knowledge. Because of the cost of repairs in my case about $4,000, the warranty companies are making real sure they are only going to pay a legit deal. Perhaps too many folks breaking their trucks with bad mods and then wanting to have warranty coverage. With computers involved I suspect there will be an electronic record of abnormalities. Oh yeah the warranty company came good for me but the Ford dealer had a bay tied up for more than a week. Felt bad about that since they always treat me very well there.

While I appreciate your initial post I still think either you are in the wrong career filed or you need to take it up with Ford directly and the way the warranty works.

Either make the owner responsible up front for the work done which may be denied by Ford (this way the owner can sue Ford or whoever represents Ford) and if the work is proven shoddy than either of the 3 parties involved can sue whom they decide is responsible for the problem.

As much as I hate unions this might be a time for the mechanics to unite against Ford or who ever states you do not get paid for work that you did and Ford will not pay.

Maybe they negotiate like the medical insurance companies do between each other?

In the 15 years I worked as a mechanic, I either worked for my dad, an independant shop or a large fleet....never for a dealership. I had several friends that did, including my dad after his shop had to close. What do they all have in common....they all pretty much hated it because of the politics involved.

I have pretty much worked mostly at dealerships during the last 15 plus years of my career, so I pretty much know all too well how the politics games work. Like prevously mentioned, I still enjoy wrenching, I still enjoy learning about the new products that come out every year and all the new technology that goes with it. I still love Ford vehicles (you will never catch me driving or owning a Toyota or Honda product).

What gets beyond frustrating though, is despite the effort I put into keeping all my certifications up to date, and my willingness to tackle difficult jobs, is the lack of respect I get from all sides just about.

Take this situation in the original post. Here we have a customer who brings his vehicle in for a catastrophic failure. He is very calm and co-operative about all the information requested of him. I have no problem trying to look at things from all sides (despite the fact that I've lost a week's pay). The cost of this particular repair is going to be enormous no matter who pays. The manufacturer only wants to ensure that the cost of the repair is justified. While I don't have a problem with that, there are other factors to consider. The time it takes me to look up all the parts needed for the repair (of which there are MANY), and my parts department simply can't afford to tie up one person to look them all up (not to mention that they don't know WHAT to look up). The time it has taken me to place phone calls to Hot-Line to discuss all further testing needed. The time taken to respond back to those responsible for accepting or rejecting a request for claim approval. This means taking more pictures, uploading those pictures through a response link that takes a million years to load up each picture attachment, and then typing all the information that is being requested, and finally re-submitting it.

In a nutshell, there has been way more time wasted in this process than the actual time wrenching, time that I am NOT getting paid. And THIS is the kind of thing that tests one's patience and puts one's sanity on the line.

Man that sucks. Sorry to hear about your week. One of the many reasons why when I was wrenching I never worked for a dearler. A few of them talked to me about it, but there was no way I was going to deal with that stuff on daily basis.

I have a tuner and doodads and the ( "***** extender") thing never happened ? so thats probably not covered under warranty ? :eek:

Our ford dealers here in AZ seem to get the trucks thru quickly ,, at least for HG issues ,,I think it is rediculous what your going thru ,, good luck

It's a crying shame that you have to go through this. To loose a week's pay over doing your job is crazy. As another poster has stated also, I'm not a big fan of unions but dang it, you ought to be compensated for the work that you've already done so far!

This is yet another case of a few ruining it for many. I can't drive into the city without being passed by 4 or 5 trucks ripping passed me blowing huge clouds of black smoke through a huge tail pipe. One lives down the street from me, but it's a Dodge.
These few idiots destroying motors on a regular basis now have all the OEM's acting like an insurance company.
I worked at a big GM dealer when Buick Grand Nationals were hot. Beside repainting these cars when they were delivered many underwent more than one engine swap due to boost level by the owner. But the GM rep just signed the papers and we were ready to go. Now with a million tuners trucks eating 20k motors there is no way the OEM's can turn a blind eye.
So the average guy with a tuner that is looking for a bit of economy and a bit more power under certain conditions is screwed. I wouldn't run one on a new truck with this witch hunt going on.

I think we will see less people messing with the new scorpion motor ? are the 6.4's covered for 5yr 100k like the 6.0's even if they are those will be dropping off the warranty radar in a few years
Heck Ford may not need mechanics anymore lol

You took the words right out of my mouth!!

here im the states we as techs tried to go union. the United Auto workers did not pick us up. We were picked up by the aerospace and machinist workers union. It didnt play out well. Most shops just fired the tech that were supporting it and payed off the saleouts to rat.
Theres now a few union shops out there but not many.

Wow, I never thought of it from a techs point of view. I think I would be looking for a new job. Reminds me of the same BS doctors have to go through. Gotta love the government for mandating all this new emissions junk.

its not that easy some of us make a good living doing what we do. Its hard to go out and make 75k+ a year and know that you will always have a job. Many of us dont have a collage degree some of us didnt even finish highschool but still have a way to make a really good living.
I wish I knew what else I could do to to make the same thing I do now, What I would give to not have to deal with the b.s.

Very noble point !

Being a tech for International, I cannot tell you how many Ford trucks customers have brought in to get work done even when the vehicle is still under warranty because they don't want to deal with Ford's warranty, the B.S., and the 3 week downtime it takes to get the truck fixed.

The customer would get a quote and time frame from us on how long it would take to get this job done. They said the Ford dealership would be a couple days to 3 weeks. We would tell them we have the parts in stock and could get it done today.

...we used to work on alot of Alaska Railroad vehicles. They were happy to have the truck back in service the same or next day!

It's not just Ford though, we have done warranty on a lot of other vehicles to that the customer paid for because it is cheaper for them to pay for it than to have the truck not make money during the downtime and have it covered under warranty.

Don't sweat it. Life is full of BS, you just have to get up in the morning and say my glass is at least half full and make up your mind to have a good day. I grew up on a poor mixed farm, worked in the mines as a miner, engineer, chief engineer, superintendent, manager, too much time in gov't service and some enjoyable time as a pilot. It all has the BS just different smells and textures. Mostly the grass really isn't greener on the other side of the fence.

Some of the truest words I've seen yet. Posted on the internet no less. A lot of people think the answer is start your own business, be your own boss. Got news for you, if you own a business you are NEVER your own boss. And BS abounds. :)

That you know of. :)

First thing everyone says when someone inquires about adding a tuner and deleting the DPF is "remember to change it back to stock prior to taking it to the dealer."

Sucks that you have to go through that kind of aggravation though.

Those people are the ones who own a business that fails...Personally, I got tired of watching the one I worked for waste money and do stupid things with what they had. I'm talking about basic things that would make a college accounting major freak out. Then, at the end of the year, they would talk about how "we" needed to buckle down and watch what we were doing.

I think a lot of people dont realize that the techs dont work for Ford. They work for the dealership and dealerships are rarely owned by Ford, they are franchised operations.

OK techs tell us the truth here. Isn't the time you waste on a job like this kind of off set by the routine stuff that the "book" pays 3 hours time on but because of experience you can get three of them out in 3 hours. Isn't that how it works, cause if not I don't see how they keep any of you guys on the job.

That is the way I used to do it years ago. More jobs you can get done ahead of the book time the better.

Works both ways.

its a system of give and take thats for sure. The reality is a little different now then it was 15 years ago. The manufacture has gotten really tight on the times.
I have done more then a few cyclinder head jobs. ford pays us about 15 hours to do that job. not a lot of time to spare in that one if you can beat it at all.
they pay less then 6.0 for an egr cooler/oil cooler. high pressure pumps 4.3 hours.

so far as keeping us on the job goes why do you think your truck sits in a back lot for 2 weeks waiting for someone to get to it?
techs are hard to find and good ones with experance are rare. I will say this as well, those of us that have stuck it out for decades make a fair living. but still make $30 /flag hour is almost on heard of.
I dont know what most of you call a good living either.

Update
 

On this forum where members all too easily tend to bash the manufacturer, the dealership and the technician when a problem occurs with their vehicle, I thought it only fair to post the outcome of this situation. Well, after the long drawn out out process that took place, mother Ford finally coughed up and granted approval to have the truck described in my initial post repaired. The truck received a complete new engine (with a 2010 part number), as well as a complete new exhaust aftertreatment system (DOC/DPF & all 3 EGT sensors) and complete under body wiring harness. To put it into perspective, this repair likely increased the value of the truck significantly. The owner was very patient throughout the process. I was able to put about 200 miles on the new engine after the repair to ensure that no new issues were caused during the repair process. But most important of all, the owner was happy with the outcome in the end.:-X22

..... and fast forward to today, where he brought in another virtually identical truck for an issue of oil level rising rapidly. After the last expereience, and educating him on what to look for in order to prevent a similar occurence of events described in the first post of this thread, it is very enlightening to see that he is doing his part to prevent an impending expensive repair, not giving a damn who has to pay for it.

Here is the straight and narrow on it. If I were to get a vehicle in for four new tires and a four wheel brake job, that would likely pay me a day's pay in just over half a day (unless I were a real canine fornacator working at pace slower than a turtle). If I were ambitious, I could comfortably complete two of such said jobs in a day. If I were to have two such jobs a day, five days a week, my yearly pay would likely rival that of a doctor or lawyer. But, we all know that not every vehicle is going to require such work every day. And any warranty repair is more often than not, going to pay very little book time that very few if any techs will beat. And we all know that the majority of work that comes in is usually warranty work.

Glad to see that it worked out for the owner, and also bad habits were changed.

Since I'm no longer a 6.4 diesel owner, I dont have those concerns anymore.

Great outcome in the end. For the life of me I cannot understand why people don't pop the hood weekly and just check for the obvious.

That's a great story with a good outcome. Thanks for coming back and updating us. there is a similar thread nearby that has not been resolved yet. I'm glad Ford did the right thing. I think if I was Ford and looking at these catastropic (yeah I can't spell for chit) failures I would spend a few bucks telling every 6.4L owner to increase his maintiance schedule and save both the owner and Ford some aggravation.

Today I am changing the oil and beginning my new "Super Dooper Duty" plan. I will install a quick change oil plug and at each 1000 mile interval I will drain the oil down to one quart below full and add a quart of fresh. At 5000 intervals I will do a normal oil and filter change. Cost is about $12 per cycle, much cheaper than a motor. For the first cycle I plan to get an oil anaylsis at 2500 and 5000 miles. It won't give me honey yellow oil on the stick when I check it but it should reduce dilution and "oil growth" considerably.