Second Battery Location in a V-10
 

Well, I just installed a second battery tray in the X. I had to move the vapor canister from the area by the air intake to the area below the air intake. It was a short move but made room for a battery that is the same size as the original. The power steering reservoir had to be moved further back a couple of inches to make room for the battery. Tormorrow I will get a second battery and mount it and run the cables. Here are some pictures of the results.

https://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gal...id=209909&.jpg
New battery location next to the air filter.

https://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gal...id=209910&.jpg
Top view

https://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gal...id=209911&.jpg
New power steering bracket.

https://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gal...id=209912&.jpg
Power steering bottom foot.

https://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gal...id=209916&.jpg
New vapor canistor location below the air filter just above the power steering gear box.

It took about 2 hours total time but is well worth it and very easy. What do you think?

Bryan

Looks like a great idea shadowdd ! Did you just order a 2nd battery box or a diesel or what?
I was thinking the same thing,,If and when I purchase a V-10 Ex. because I would put a plow on it,,,,and having the second battery as like in a diesel truck seem to make a difference,,,,,Nice Job!

It is actually a $10 battery tray from autozone but is the perfect size for the location. It has the hold downs and such but I don't have those in yet until I get the battery later today.

Bryan

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O.K. I'll "bite"...what am I missing here ? What "difference" could there be adding a 2nd battery to a "gasser" like mine ?

My "gasser" is a '05 V-10 4wd LTD. It has one battery. One GOOD battery. When it had one BAD battery, I saw the need for another battery (would barely start if sat for more than a few days....So I first checked out the electrical system,( ruled out any "stray" voltage drain or alternator charging issues) , bought a new battery, and put it in place of the old BAD battery. Seems to make a difference (EX starts now).

Diesels have TWO batteries. They have TWO batteries because they are DIESELS. See, DIESELS have MUCH higher (about double) the compression ratio of gassers, so they take MUCH more electrical power to crank over.

As a "gasser" (again V-10 owner) I have to admit I am jealous of the vastly superior towing power of the diesels. Wish there was some practical way to get that additional towing power. Watching diesel EX's towing loads roughly equiv. to what I tow with my V-10, disappear in the distance as they pull ahead of me on those long up-grades here in the mountain west....sure wish I could make my V-10 "pull" like a diesel when towing (dont you diesel guys try and keep up with me when I am running "empty"...! )

So..what do you think - if I got a 2nd GOOD battery in my V-10, would that make it tow like a diesel ?

Oo.

*burp* nevermind!

6686L.... what the heck are you rambling about?!?

The second battery is to handle the added electrical load that Bryan has in his truck. Form all the aftermarket electronic gadgets, to the electrical air pump for the suspension and horns.
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Bryan, did you or do you have to get a higher output alternator?

Did the evap canister have to have anything lengthened or was there enough length in the hoses and such to make that move below the intake filter?

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"rambling"...? Where you been...boy...this is a Internet forum!

People are SUPPOSED to ramble. What are you suggesting...that people THINK and try and LEARN the actual technological FACTS about what they are blabbing about...?

Here's my problem with this thread's theory about "electrical load". Assuming he has a REAL EX with a WORKING "bone stock" alternator, he has over 100 amps to play with. (just out of idle curiosity, do stock "EX" diesels have larger capacity alternators than my "gasser" EX?

My air pump pulls about 10 amps. EVERYTHING else running full tilt (front and rear air. condit., lighting, etc...adds another 30 or so amps.

Now, this fellow MAY have a need to disturb people for hundreds of feet around him with one of those "thumper" type stereo systems - if so, he may be using some of the largest amplifiers they sell for large public events - might pull another, oh, maybe 25 amps for a really extreme system .

So, here's the problem - actually, TWO problems.

1) I am unable to come up with a scenario by which you could come CLOSE to using up the capacity of the bone stock alternator in modern Ford truck-based products. Maybe you know about special "high load" situations I have no experience with ? ? ?

2) If you DO have a need to pull very more than a 100 amp. load, well, adding batteries isnt going to help, for two reasons
a) as you point out, he is going to need a bigger alternator. Batteries
dont MAKE electricity, they only store it.
b) he is probably going to want a fire estinguisher........if he
pulls a load of much over 100 amps thru a EX's electrical
system, he is going to need one....!

Having a second battery comes in handy when running a winch or an inverter for 110V AC power.
Couple suggestions ....if you're gonna run two 12v batteries in parallel, you might consider installing 2 new identical ones. Paralleling a new and and old one don't always work out well. Another consideration, if you're gonna replace both, consider two heavy duty 6 volt truck batteries in series. JMHO,as always. :confused:


"Marines I see as two breeds, Rottweilers or Dobermans, because Marines come in two varieties, big and mean, or skinny and mean. They're aggressive on the attack and tenacious on defense. They've got really short hair and they always go for the throat."
-RAdm. "Jay" R. Stark, USN

Taken from University of Wisconsin's database:

"Lead-acid batteries are physically large batteries that contain lead plates in a solution of acid to create electricity. "

Taken from: How Lead Acid Batteries Work

Available Capacity versus Total Capacity
Since batteries depend on a chemical reaction to produce electricity, their Available Capacity depends in part on how quickly you attempt to charge or discharge them relative to their Total Capacity. The Total Capacity is frequently abbreviated to C and is a measure of how much energy the battery can store. Available Capacity is always less than Total Capacity

Com'on, guys, this is mostly semantics you're debating - :-banghead


..See? Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Guns defend people against people with smaller guns.

:-blah:-blah: WHAT-EVER,,,If the man wants to add a second battery to his V-10 Excursion,,,I see it as a Good idea!

Why,,I have had plows on my last 5 trucks
76 F-250-390
95' F-350 PS 7.3
99' F-350 PS 7.3
04' F-350 V-10
06' F-350 6.0
When plowing with a gas truck,, one battery, it already is drawing a good amount with lights, heater/defroster, wipers, strobe, back-up lights etc,,now lift/angle a modern plow,,lights dim,,blower/heater slows,really notice it.

Plowing with my last 3 Diesel trucks,,hence 2 batteries,,,I think around 130 amp alt,,,snow plow package,,you notice very little draw on lights heater etc, when using the plow,,,sure notice some,,but nothing like what I recall seeing with my gas truck single battery setups.

I think we all know that a Diesel has more compression then a gas job,,,and we also know that Glow-Plugs take alot of juice also,,,But is this the only reason to have a second battery, in a Truck or Excursion,,,,NOT !

Yeah - there's something I didn't think of that DOES pull a lot of power. An invertor. Like the one in my boat. Capable of providing over 4,000 watts. It alone pulls close to 80 amps when fully loaded.

So, I have to back up a little. If this guy is living in his EX, and needs to run a whole house-load worth of electricity, yes, in that case, he does need TWO alternators like I have on my boat, and, oh..let' see..on my boat I have FOUR Group 28 batteries...makes sense now....

Oh..for the guy who THINKS he read an article claiming that batteries "make" electricity ? Well..read the article a little more carefully. It CORRECTLY points out how lead-acid batteries work.

Now - about plows. Good point - I dont know anything about them. I presume the blade is raised and lowered by some kind of electric motor, running either a gear train of some sort, or a hydraulic pump. I am way out of my experience level here, so i have NO clue how much current that would draw. I could GUESS and say around 30 amps for the largest pump motors I would imagine they'd use, but I'd just be guessing.

I did, and I'm still right.

They PRODUCE and STORE electricity.

Why don't they produce energy when they are dead? The last I knew, I had to put it in there with a charger or alternator, store it as chemical energy, and retrieve it when I needed it.

The chemical reaction INTIALLY creates electricity.

However, I'm sure Bryan has added the additional battery for reserves. Hopefully he'll chime back in.

:-missingt

Course none of your "ramblin'" did that. :-X10 It was something about diesel power, towing :-blah :-blah :-blah :-X05

Electrons move from plate grid to plate grid from - to + causing transfer of the plate material through the acid (chemical electrical production). Eventually they either corrode enough or have transferred enough material to not work as effectively eventually leading to a dead battery. The positive plate material grows and the negative shrinks creating a "dead" battery even just from sitting.

Cold climates make the positive plates shed due to contraction and expasion during discharge and recharge cycles, this creates a brown sludge at the bottom of the battery case creating a short circuit.

Hot climates promote positive plate growth, positive grid metal corrosion in the electrolyte, negative plate shrinkage, buckling of plates, and loss of water.

Another cause is addition of tap water. Not only does this stimulate corrosion of the plates, but causes lead sulphating. Calcium sulphate coats the plates and fills the pores causing less current flow resulting in a eventually "dead" battery.

Recharging a lead-acid battery is like trying to wash your hands with gloves on. When the active material in the plates can no longer sustain discharge current, the battery dies. Basically, the easiest way to put it is that if you have to charge your lead acid battery from dead, it's living on borrowed time. There is a condition inside the battery causing the discharge due to one of the above issues

[quote . . . . :-missingt

. . . your "ramblin'" did that. :-X10 It was something about diesel power, towing :-blah :-blah :-blah :-X05[/quote]

ah ha - so THAT's it. Diesel electricity isn't as strong as "gasser" electricity...see...we "gassers" have the better EX !

Now thats funny!!!:-X05

REALLY, REALLY FUNNY! :-jammin

Wow, sorry for the late reply. Anyway, Ken was right... we run alot of electronics ranging from Directv satellite and stereo system to air horns and air bags. There is a whole lot in between too. (Most of the pictures are in my gallery, I don't think I have a picture of the tracvision though) Ken, as for an upgraded alt, I have a stinger 220 amp alt that charges both batteries. All the cables have been upgraded to 0/1 guage. I just figured that there was space there and adding a second battery would take some of the strain off the first battery and the alt.

Thanks, Bryan

P.S I will get some more pictures tomorrow showing the battery installed and such.

Still not clear how you could over-tax the stock alternator.

Could you enlighten us more details about your "electroncis'...? WHAT "electroncis". How many amps your electronics draw ?

How about the air horns? The systems I am familiar with use a small electric-motor-driven air compresser that pulls about 6-8 amps when running. Are your air-horns on continiously?

When you say "air bags", may I presume you are talking about a "load leveling" system, with some kind of device to "sense" changing frame elevation above the axles, and add or subtract air from the "air bags"? If so, what make air compressor does THAT have? Mine pulls less than 10 amps when it is running. Mine does not run all the time. If yours runs all the time, suggest you find out where your system's air lines have failed, and fix em.

Glad to hear you've "upped" the size of the wires - wow..220 amp. alternator ? Fantastic. You could WELD with that !

You think you "took the strain off your battery" ? Nope - let me explain. The "plate voltage" of a battery runs about 12 volts. In order to charge your battery, your alternator SHOULD be producing above 13 volts. Have you run a voltmeter at various points in your EX's electrical system to make sure everyrthing is in order. Your stock alternator is computer-controlled; even at idle it will produce enough power to keep the voltatge over 13 volts ( that is, IF it is working properly, and IF you dont have your clothes washer AND dryer on at the same time - I presume you also have a monster invertor like I have in my boat, and when that is "loaded" with ALL our electric devices ALL running at once - yes, that WOULD come close to over-loading the capacity of a bone-stock EX's alternator ).

The point is, IF you have a PROPERLY FUNCTIONING stock alternator, IT takes the "strain" of ALL of your electrical loads - the battery is just sitting there. Again, if the alternator is functioning properly, the battery is just along for the ride - its ONLY function is to provide stored electricity for electrical needs when the motor is shut off.

So - the 2nd battery IS necessary and a good idea IF you run a heavy load of electrical devices with the engine off. Good thinking.

(maybe you should trade that crummy diesel in on a gasser EX - they have much better electricity......!) (couldnt resist that) (hope at least SOME of you guys know enough about electrical systems to recognize I am just teasin about the "diesel -vs- gas" discussions...!)

He has a gasser. A V10 with over 220K. :)

I think his idea was for when the truck is off.

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned that the alternator rating is at optimum RPMs. I don't have a specific chart for the Ford alternators, but I know that my car's 115A alternator only puts out about 35 Amps at idle.

A trick around it is to get a smaller pulley on the alternator so it spins faster at idle. The problem lies in that as the engine RPMs increase, the alternator spins even faster so you have to balance best pulley size between making sure the alternator can spin that fast (quality bearings and balancing) and the amount of acceptable output at idle.

A variable speed pulley on the alternator would be the best solution so that it maintains the optimum alternator RPMs but that adds quite an expense to the system.

But back to the original post...

Will this mod work with a stock intake? It looks like you have a boxless cone filter in your Ex. Also, did you install a battery isolator to protect against different charge levels on the batteries?

Doug

Refer to my original suggestion about installing two new identical batteries.
A battery isolator is not needed unless the loads are split and there is a chance of running one (the non-starting) down while the engine is not running.


If government is the answer, it must have been a really stupid question.

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SUGGESTION ( for those who hate walking...or having to "thumb" a ride....!)

WOW - that fellow is drawing a lot of "juice" to rely on even TWO batteries - if you are correct in that he wants that kind of power drain with his EX's motor "OFF".

My recommendation in that case is to do what we do in boats and large RV's with heavy current "drains" when the engine is not running. Have a separate "dedicated" starting battery, isolated from the "main current drain".

Since he has a "gasser", it wouldnt take much of a battery to crank it over should he run his main ( what we call "house" batteries in the boating and RV trade).

This "cranking only" battery could be stuffed anywhere - are you guys aware that there are quite long skinny 12 volt batteries avail ? Most big cities have a WESTMARINE store where you can buy all kinds of stuff "
off the shelf" so that you can charge ALL the batteries ALL the time, but only "activate" your "emergency starting battery" at the flick of a switch, when necessary.

Again, assuming you are correct and his concern is to handle heavy amp. loads when his motor is off, I STRONGLY recommend that third or extra 'starting" battery - MUCH less expensive, and gives him MUCH better reliability, then relying on a single alternator.

Remember, folks - turning MECHANICAL energy into ELECTRICAL energy uses LOTS of power and generates HEAT. If he really IS drawing down batteries thru REALLY heavy electrical loads, ANY alternator is going to get pretty damn hot re-charging the lost electricity. That raises "reliability" issues.
:-tap

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https://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gal...id=200276&.jpg

here ya go.... been there done that... wrangler offroad makes a perfect fit kit for the v10 excursion and super duty trucks.

You've made that assertion/challenge before, and like I responded in that other thread, "<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->You've made some ridiculous, inaccurate, inflammatory, off the wall, and extremely sarcastic comments before, but that challenge you posed to "ANY" diesel owner is downright stupid."

Stewart

Stewart, he really gets under your skin, eh?

I dunno...I like his posts. They keep the board entertaining. :D

Nah, I just figure why let him get away with some of the ludicrous statements he makes, ya know? :D

LOL, entertaining IS one way to put it.

Stewart

ADMITTEDLY OFF-TOPIC ON THIS PARTICULAR THREAD

WHICH IS 'FASTER'...GASSER OR DIESEL...?

First of all, NO question that the diesel engines in the EX produce FAR more raw power than my V-10 gasoline engine could. However, the V-10, being a relatively "short-stroke" motor, probably has a MUCH higher rpm limit than the diesels.

As to drag racing, my guess is the greater torque at lower speeds would mean the "diesel' could "jump" my gasser V-10 "off the line". The greater rpm range of the gasser MAY mean the gasser EX would catch up to the diesel in short order.

As to "flat out" top speed - of course in THEORY the diesel should also win hands down. Its MUCH greater raw power would give it the ability to shove our monsters thru ever - increasing air resistance that would eventually limit the top speed of the gasser EX.

Trouble, the "highest" (meaning lowest numerical) rear axle ratio avail. is a 3.73. (That's what mine has). Assuming the diesel in this hypothetical "flat out" race has the same ratio, it is going to run out of rpm at a given speed before the gasser does (this is presuming that both the overdrive ratios in the transmissions of the gasser automatic and the diesel automatic work out to be approx. the same (roughly 70% ?).

So I think it is safe to say that the gasser is going to be capable of a higher top speed than the diesel, all other things being equal.

The problem is, that's not what you posted. And that's not what I'm calling you out on.

In this thread, you stated, "(dont you diesel guys try and keep up with me when I am running "empty"...! )"

And in the other thread, you stated, "On those rare occasions when I am using my EX WITHOUT a trailer, I dont think ANY of you diesel guys would want to lay any bets that they could keep up with me if I was so inclined NOT to act my age.....!"

You didn't talk about, "which is faster...gasser or diesel?" You talked about ANY diesel being able to keep up with YOUR V10.

You didn't talk about which engine makes more "raw power" or which engine has a "higher RPM limit." You talked about ANY diesel being able to keep up with YOUR V10.

You didn't talk about "top speed." You talked about ANY diesel being able to keep up with YOUR V10.

Well, I fit in that category of "any diesel," and while bench racing on the internet is laughs, based solely on how you've described your rig, it's a really safe bet (read: sure thing) the only chance you'd have in beating my Excursion in a race is if I break down.

In short order?

ROTFLMAO! What do you consider short order?

A 1/4 mile goes by fairly quickly, even in our oversized beasts, and if you think your rig can catch "any" diesel within that quarter mile, based on your beliefs, you're wrong.

My Excursion is still pulling hard at the end of a quarter-mile, and you wouldn't stand a chance.

So, to correct your line of thinking when it comes to "any of us diesel guys" being able to "Keep up with you," it's a sure thing you wouldn't be able to keep up with me.

Stewart

Do you have a link to where I could get that dual alt kit for a v10. I just started a thread in the v10 forum for how people are running 2 alts.

Actually the V10 has a LONGER stroke that the 7.3L and is only .02" shorter than the 6.0L.

Most stock V10s gassers will take a stock PSD off the line (with the same tranny) until the PSD builds boost.

The 7.3L & the V10 were closely matched. The 6.0L will out hustle the V10 once on the boost

Dual alternators are cool. So are dual batteries.

However, internet duels are no fun. :-duel1

Well, for a list of electronics, here goes:

Alpine IVA-D901 head unit
Alpine NVE-872A GPS unit
Alpine PXA-H701 Dolby Digital Processor
Alpine HCE-100 XM Nav Traffic / Weather reciever
Alpine XM tuner
Alpine single din center channel with Focal components built in
JL Audio 10w-6 sub woofers
Alpine 5-channel MRV-F450 V12 series amplifier
JL audio G17000 mono amp
Directed Electronis 8 inch overhead screens
Alpine TME M580 - LCD monitors
Alpine DHA-S690 6-disc DVD changer
Alpine CHA-S634 CD/MP3 changer
Saave reverse camera
Trailer alarm when hooked up.
120g iPod with Proprietary cable and pro-clip dash mount
Python 990 2-Way Security System
Python Remote start system
Python GPS tracking module
Python Alram back up battery
Stinger 220 amp alternator
Tracvision A5 Directv tracking satellite
twin viair 480c air compressors @ 170PSI
There is also about 25 -30 lights that come on when I open the doors.


It's late and I am sure I am missing a few items but gives you the majority of it.

As for why, l just wanted a little more off time without drawing down one battery so far that the alternator is over worked to charge it back up.

Bryan

:-hijacked = = = = = = =

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Hi Again Stewart !

You are probably right ! Monsta's post" reminded me of something I should know, but just plain forgot. TURBO CHARGERS ! Is it correct that all EX's that have diesel motors have TURBO-CHARGERS ?

If that is correct, you are right - i havn't got a chance up here in the mountain west - loaded or un-loaded, for the simple reason that at these altitudes (over 5,000 ft) my normally aspirated V-10 can't possibly keep up with a turbo-charged vehicle.

Hey..wait a sec...have you "hot-rodded" yours ? If Monsta is correct, there are SOME conditions I COULD give you a run for your money..that is..if you are "bone stock". You have "tricked up" your diesel..? No fair! See...with a little sheet metal work I could stuff a GM Allison or Packard-Merlin V-12 (about 1,600 cu. in) that have "two stage" super-chargers...and...and.....:-offtopicOo.

Yeah...then you'd need dual batteries!

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Naw - I'd just charge up my existing battery with some of that superior "diesel" electricity....Oo.

:-wink


:rolleyes:

5000 above or 500 below, it doesn't matter because you never qualified your statement. You merely implied a diesel Excursion...ANY diesel Excursion..couldn't keep up with your V10 powered Excursion.

Oh my stars and garters!! You're saying it's no fair that I "hot-rodded" my diesel! You're saying it's no fair I'm comparing my "tricked up" diesel to your gasser! You're trying to say if I was "bone stock," THEN you could give me a run for my money!

Nice try, but you fail.

You make all encompassing statements that are misleading, fail to qualify your statements (bone stock vs. bone stock), yet you'll still challenge "ANY diesel owner" to try and keep up with you. Then when I call you out, suddenly I'm being unfair? All because I deign to put you in your place with my tricked out, hot rodded diesel?

ROTFLMAO!

Ken, you're so very right brah! This guy can be VERY entertaining!!

:-missingt:-missingt:-missingt:-missingt


Stewart

I'll race any of the diesel owners here at any time. Towing, not towing, whatever.

Just allow me to even the playing field by adding a turbocharger and intercooler to my V10 and then we'll race.

Without the turbo, your diesels would be slugs.