Stock Frame Drivability?
 

Hey guys, I'm back again, with some headway on the 53, just need to throw some seatbelts in it, and we are kosher in terms of not falling off the seat...

But I worry, this truck will be driven by a 16 year old (given, he's smart enough to know that if he even looks at the pedal too hard, it will spin the wheels all over, and his older brother just totalled a Honda, and almost died in the process, so we have the crash-scare process all set)

He won't take it on the freeways, but it will be driven on 30-40 MPH 4 lane streets a lot, and down a fairly steep (think San Francisco, but not that bad) stretch of road to Highschool.

It's got the added weight of the 302/C4, so that's something to keep in mind.

Will it hold up okay in terms of braking? Will it handle okay at these speeds, and on the incline?

Or is it a total deathwish?

i drive my 53 in almost completely stock form every day and i think it makes me more cautious as i know the drum brakes , manual steering etc , make it harder to control in situations . so i'd say once the young 'un adjusts and realizes the trucks limitations , given he / she is not like some they will be fine . they will have to pay more attention to stay safe in these old girls as they are a lot harder to deal with . i dont think that 302 combo ya got is a whole lot heavier than my flathead and manual crashbox so it should be fine brake wise unless they want to try and run 100 mph in it .i was gonna switch to discs but the more i drive mine i dont think i am as the drums have done an admirable job . just remind them that if the drums get wet they really dont work so freakin' well !!! my 23 year old daughter borrowed mine to run to the store for mom and got the crap scared outta her at the end of the block as she drove through a big puddle and they got wet and we all know how they react to that !! :) with that being said i'd say they are gonna be driving the coolest car / truck to school !!!

Truth is the 302 weighs 100 lbs less than a flathead V8 [460 vs. 569] and the c4 is about the same as the 3 spd HD my truck has.

Depends what you did with the brakes. If the system is completely rebuilt from start to finish he should have no trouble driving it daily.

My 48 is a daily and it is completely stock on the suspension end of things. I don't tailgate! but I haven't had trouble stopping in time to avoid accidents. Give him time to get used to it where there isn't a lot of traffic and use the simple rule of no riders.

If the steering box is in good shape with no significant freeplay, and the front end aligned properly it should handle just fine, and he'll get a good upper body workout steering at low speeds.
The drum brakes will be adequate if he leave stopping room and they are fully rebuilt including new wheel cylinders, shoes, turned drums as well as new lines and flex hoses. I'd switch to a dual chamber master cylinder while doing all that replacement at least for safety sake. I had a brake line rupture on a car with a single chamber MC once in traffic, it is NOT FUN! On a steep hill it would be disasterous! If it was my son driving it as a daily driver, I'd do the Toyota power steering box conversion and add power assisted brakes. Then I'd sign him up for a good defensive driving course (NOT just driver's ed, they only teach the rules and fundamentals, not accident avoidance) that includes wet traction and spin control. Many single car accidents are due to inexperience with what to do should you drop a wheel off the pavement or start to slide.

I drive a 56' with stock suspension, and a 302/c4 every day. The only mod to the brakes on mine is a duel chamber MC and a power brake booster on the firewall. At times I find myself wishing I had front discs, when things were not adjusted right, or braking on a steep hill. But its all about learning the limitations of the stock system and driving accordingly. Just have to drive like its 1956 and to not be in a huge hurry all the time. I went thru the front end (with the help of all the fine folks here!) and things seem pretty tight. I do not have any need for power steering, only parking in tight spaces is a "work out" as long as the truck is moving, the steering is as almost as easy as other vehicles.

I think the key here is to teach the kid the limitations of the truck. You cannot drive one of these old trucks the way you drive a new car. With some coaching from you it shouldn't take him long to get adjusted to driving the truck. Stopping distance will be greater, the truck will have a tendency to follow ruts in the road and have some bump steer (all inherent with a straight axle configuraion). As long as everything is mechanically sound he should be ok.
Its all a learning curve, heck, it might even make the young lad a safer driver as he has to pay alot more attention to his driving than those silly teenage girls that tend to drive Daddy's Camry way over their abilities (oops I got sidetracked). Teach the kid to be aware of his surroundings, whats going on in front, way in front, on the sides, and behind him. Teach him how to anticipate what the other morons on the road might do. Get him in the habit of constantly assessing the ever changing situation for risks and to always plan and exit strategy if something happens.

I disagree on the defensive driving course. I have not been to a good one yet. the tactics they teach in those classes tend to lead to traffic congestion and road rage. I think we need offensive driving courses (I mean "ah"fensive here, as in an aggressive position not "o"ffensive as in being unacceptable).

The kid will have the coolest ride in the high school parking lot. That in itself will probably inspire the kid to take alot of pride in the truck and take care of it.

Bobby

I learned how to drive with my Dad's 56 F100 ,with 6 cylinder and 3 on the tree and stock brakes.....I still got it to go 90 mph!! I think Knowing the limitations is great. I would however teach this boy that look what happened to the Honda!! I t would be wise to drive the 53 with respect. I know parents worry about their kids on the road,but as long as he respects you and the 53 and loves the old truck -he will respect it. Just hope the best and the 302 will go faster than my 6 did!! Good Luck!!--he can have pride like I did that I drove a 56 in High -school...........Bill

Thank you all for your posts!

55 F350- It's actually got power steering, believe it or not, and a steering wheel about the size of a 45 RPM record..But the steering is very nice, albeit whiney. It hasn't actually been steered while moving, but she's a beauty sitting still..

MT- Thanks for those weight numbers! I had no idea that the 302 was a lighter motor, and 460 pounds is nothing!

AX- Every single brake component is new, along with a dual chamber MC, I guess the 4 wheel drums still bother me though. Steering box is brand new, just aligned the front end, it's got a touch of slop to it, probably 1 degree of rotation at the most.

Packrat- So you have basically an identical setup to my vehicle, it's good to know that you don't run into issues!

Bobby- He's a real smart kid, he'll understand how iffy the truck can be as opposed to something such as a Honda.

Bill- 90 MPH? Bet you that was some fun time you had! Geez, I would have peed myself, and then some. 51dueller and I did the math about a year ago, it will top out at 73 (if I recall correctly) at 5000 RPM (as fast as I'd ever want to rev it). Needless to say, it will really haul butt from a standstill!

I have a friend with a 52 V-Dub Transporter, and due to the gearing, it will beat out ANY vehicle to 30 feet. I'm a little bit worried about the 16 year old getting courageous and seeing what vehicles HE can beat to 30 feet, but I think he's smarter than that.

The bottom line for me with kids new to driving is size. Do you want your kid learning to drive and make mistakes as we all did in a 3000 lb import or 5000 lbs of good old American steel thats lasted for > 50 years?

That's a very valid point, but the build I'm doing isn't a beautiful restoration by ANY standards, so the value of the vehicle isn't particularly high.

Any import that's worth less than this 53 has big issues, such as timing belt breakage damage.

The 53 is solid, mechanically sound, and for me, cheaper to insure.

Weight aside, an import is clearly a better choice, crumple zones, drivability, safety, economy, etc etc.

However, the young man who will be driving this truck is only 14, and he's learned so much working on it, and has his heart set on this truck. At this rate, it should be ready for him by the time he's 16. I'm just so concerned about safety, especially if some other a-hole rams it.

I've repeated this story before, but the year after I got my 48 F1 on the road, a pickup loaded with kids doing about 80 decided to run over me while I was turning into my road. They left 40' of skid marks before they hit me from behind. It spun my truck 180 and dumped me in the ditch, bending an axle and a wheel. It smashed the box into the cab........

I went home and brought back my spare, changed it and drove the 48 for a month until they could get it in the shop to straighten the frame. Rebuilt the box and other miscellaneous bits later.

A wrecker had to be called to take them back to town. Front end of their truck was mostly gone, coolant all over the road, tire flattened, etc. They definitely got the worst of the deal...........

Oh, did I mention the other truck was an early 90's F250 4x4 extended cab long box pickup? Don't mess with these old trucks - it'll hurt!

It's good to hear that you're okay after that whole deal!

Well, I figured, hey, there's no crumple zones, obviously, but the underlying truth is the whole darn truck is a crumple zone.

I'm surprised that your truck wasn't totalled.

I know you get a lot of points for hitting a vintage vehicle that fast and not totalling it. I think it's almost as many points as nailing a whole stoplight!

}>

They must be winning.

Well, obviously highschool isn't the place to find the most talented drivers, but for the most part it's alright...Just the occasional 160 year old grandma on the wrong side of the road in her Ford Taurus.

I'll have to think about this one, you guys do make a lot of points, but I just don't know about the usability.

I would swap to front discs for my son. He may drive to the truck's limitations, but some jerk can still cut him off. I'd give him every advantage I could. I second Ax on the defensive driving school, or if one isn't available locally, take him to an autocross. They'll probably frown on running the truck, so let him run your family sedan. As a long time autocrosser, I've had several young men and women go autocrossing with me to learn car control. The best thing that can happen to a cocky, overconfident young man is to lose control in a safe environment. It usually scares them silly, but more important, they learn that it CAN happen to them. From that point, they're usually receptive to learning the correct way.

I'm be terrified to let that truck open up on an autocross track. Taking a run in a 356 Speedster without a rollbar was as much as I could take. The 356 may have the Corvair effect, but at least it's somewhat made for that.

I wouldn't mind letting him go around in my Honda though, that's a good idea. I will definitely try to find a defensive driving school though. Being in SoCal should make finding one with ease. Just on the off chance anyone from San Diego has been to one of these, have any recommendations?

I say go for it. You and your son are building the truck, he will have alot of pride and respect for the truck and the work he put into it. Yes, he will on occasion smoke the tires and probably get in more than one stop light race but then again he is going to do that in any vehicle is will be driving. Instead of letting him figure it out on his own and possibly hurt himself or others, take him out and teach him.

When you get the truck driveable take him out and let him thrash it a bit. Its very important for him, and you, to learn how the truck will react. Find a rutted road and let him feel the bump steer, hammer on it hard, lock up the brakes, try to slide the rear around a corner, etc. The more you and he learn about the truck and how it handles, reacts, responds, etc the better and safer he will be.

I had to figure it all out on my own. I drove some very dangerous vehicles in some very dangerous ways, and its a wonder I didn't hurt myself or someone else

Don't worry too much. From what I can tell form your posts, you, he, and the truck will be fine

enjoy the ride
Bobby

I really appreciate your post, bobby.

I am sure he will adapt well to the truck, he learned basically everything he could about engines at age 12, which isn't easy for him, being that living the nice modern TV-Computer lifestyle isn't conducive to that sort of knowledge. He's a real smart kid, and his driving style isn't causing as much concern as others.

Now, the truck will basically never get any freeway use, there's no reason to, and no need to.

But there's situations, like just the other week I was in LA on a road similar to the 4-laner running through our community, and I had to lock the brakes on my Honda HARD, and still had to take a hard left into the bike lane to avoid hitting the man who decided that stopping for no reason was a good idea. Of course, my Honda handled it like a champ, but how would one of these trucks do this? Would he run into issues going 40 miles per hour, and hitting the breaks hard, and turning off to the side of the road to avoid an accident?

Obviously, he wouldn't tailgate, he knows better, but what if he got t-boned? Wouldn't that essentially be certain death?

Sometimes you just have to trust in a higher power. He already knows not to tailgate, and with him knowing the limitations on the truck he will (hopefully) leave even more room between vehicles.
I try to get this concept through to my kids as well. In my 2005 F-150 I can drive it aggressively and hard. I know I have excellent stopping power and great handling. When I drive my 49 its a whole different ballgame. Even though I have great brakes and lots of power in the 49 I still drive it alot more carefully. My son is 13, his daily driver will probably be a 1967 Jeepster Commando. He too will have to learn to drive accordingly.

With some encouragement and good schooling on your part he will be fine (I know that won't keep you from worrying...thats what parents do....lol)

Bobby

What MFlat is Stating here, is that Basically, If he Had been driving an Import, he'd be Dead right now if he hadn't been driving such a Solidly Built Classic Truck!

I was Plowed into by an "Olde Bat" driving an Import while making a left hand Turn in an Intersection when the "Olde Bat" driving same stated Import blew through a Red Light doing 45 Plus MPH & shoved my "Wee Beastie" back over 30' causing roughly $3,000 worth of damage to the Bumper, Fender, Vallance, Grille, etc., & The "Olde Bats" Import was totaled.
So what I'm stating is the same exact thing, if I'd been Driving Anything other than my Solidly Built Classic Mercury M-100 Truck, I'd Not be here typing this message to you, as I'd more than likely be Dead.

Yes..Unfortunate isn't it. Worry worry.


Well, we've got 2 more years to see if he's still hell bent on old trucks. We'll see how it goes.

Thank you for all your help!

Also, now that I think more, we have done quite a lot of safety things. Gone is the in-cab tank, it's got an 8 gallon cell between the rails in the tail. Hopefully going to put 4 point harnesses in to prevent the steering column impailment, and the "WEE IM SUPERMAN" effect. That's pretty much all that can be done, unless I make it like Cher's Effie and put airbags in..but that's silly.

Anyone remember that truck?

I don't mean to be discrediting your statement, but you have to be honest, an import has a HELL of a lot more safety features than an old truck.

ABS on pretty much all new vehicles, frontal impact airbags, side impact airbags, rollover curtain airbags, rollover protection incorporated into the unibody frame, crash protection pillars, etc.

Our trucks have...none of that, just crumply steel.

Sorry but w/ the Angle she Hit my truck @, if I'd been in an Import as well when the "Olde Bat" impacted, I'd be Very dead!
As she would have Plowed right on through, because of the Angle of the Collision & her Speed & continued Into the Passenger Compartment killing me w/ None of those modern safety features would have been effective in the Least!

I've made a study of NTSB Accident Reports because of my Training as a Volunteer Emergency 1st Reponse Medic & I specialze in Extrication of patients from Vehicles involved in Traffic Accidents & Car Stunts on Film Sets as a Set Medic usually brought in by the Stunt Gaffer in charge of the Film.
So I'm not just attempting to Blow Smoke Up someones Arse hear.

Those impact pillars still make a huge difference in terms of passenger cabin intrusion.

I understand though, sometimes the shear weight of the vehicle will save your life.

I know you'll do what you believe is right for your son, so I'm not trying to sway you one way or the other.

Here's a couple more tidbits to think on. I probably accept more risk than I should, but here's what I've found. btw, the accident was back in '02. Impact was hard enough that the glovebox emptied itself all over the seat beside me.

Brakes: I regularly make panic stops and make evasive maneuvers for deer around here that are bent on suicide. My system is the stock drum/drum setup it came with - only completely rebuilt with all new parts. I can lock up all 4 wheels on dry pavement. Haven't hit one yet! (thanks, God)

Gas tank: I still run the in-cab tank. In the accident above not a drop spilled. It would have been more at risk for rupture back between the frame rails which bent some.

Safety features: The stock seat absorbed all the impact. I lightly bumped my head on the rear window, but didn't suffer any whiplash.
I have 3 point seatbelts installed in the truck but I wasn't wearing them that day. I had a deathgrip on the steering wheel as it went spinning into the ditch.

Modern cars have many more safety features, BUT it's because cars are so much more lightly built. If they didn't have the gizmo's even a low speed crash would total the car and injure the occupants. I honestly believe its a toss-up. - Tim

So the brakes seem to be adequate, I wouldn't mind throwing discs on the front, that would at least make it on par with 21st century production cars.

I've got a nice plastique racing cell, it will flex a good deal before cracking. It's got the sponge to hold fuel in better as well.

I do not know if I agree with cars being more lightly built, they do have a good deal more upper frame work than...no frame at all.

The Crown Vic is the last real American car, anyone know if it's got any upper frame structure?

The "Wee Beastie" has all original Safety Features as well, Drum/Drum totally rebuilt, Copper type Hwy/Offroad L/T tires, Lap Belt, etc., she panic & normal stops just fine.

my 67 mustang had drum drum and i beat that thing hard and stoping was never a big concern i thought discs were as much for heat disapation as much as stoping power my fil built a 550+hp big block camero and has no prob running the factory drums but the disc conversion isnt that pricy so go for it and ice a frozzen lake is the best place to learn what loseing control and raining her back in is really like and for the most part safe

im afraid i'd have to disagree with an import being safer . i once got hit , t-boned in a 64 f250 i had , by a kid street racing his honda . well long story short he bent the frame and really tore up the right side of my truck , but like bobby i drove mine home . he and his passenger went to the hospital in bad shape and there wasnt enough left of the accord to recycle for a 16 oz. bean can . im with the others on him learning to " drive " / race . i was racing at the age of 10 in carts etc. and eventually dirt tracking and drag racing . i think despite my age it made me a better , safer driver as i had more of an understanding of what i and the vehicles were and were not capable of . that doesn't meen however i didn't still do stupid crap .......}>

The typical defensive driving training is indeed usually lacking, but more and more there are "accident avoidance" schools being given. Our autocross club usually volunteers to provide proctors at one or two a year. They concentrate on things like panic stops and how stopping distance can be reduced and control maintained by threshhold braking rather than locking the wheels, avoidance maneuvering (A plastic garbage can is unexpectedly tossed out in front of the car), returning the car to the pavement when a wheel drops off onto the shoulder without overcorrecting, and a run in a specially rigged car with hydraulic lift outriggers and bald tires on wet pavement.
Obviously as national level autocross racers ourselves (the AX in my user name) I whole heartedly agree that autocross is an excellent way to learn car control and awareness of your surroundings. I drove for 32 years before taking up AX and thought I was a pretty good driver, but the first couple runs on an AX course proved I had a lot to learn. I credit our training with keeping us out of several potential accidents, and in learning the only place fast driving belongs is on a race course.

AX,

The accident training you describe would be awesome and very beneficial, especailly the hands on stuff. I would very interested to see how I did in a course as you describe. I think it would be very telling and quite an eye opener.

Its a shame that none of it is taught in your standard, so called "defensive driving" courses. My opinion of the standard "defensive driving" courses is that they are a way for companies with large fleets to CYA (cover their a**) and make a showing to their insurance companies that they are proactive. The classes are typically 8 hours (long, grueling, monotonous hours) of lectures...........

........oops...sorry, I'll get off my soapbox

As I've said, I'm a big fan of taking the truck and the kid out in a controled area and thrashing on it for awhile to get a good feel for it and how it acts. Like anything, to be good at something it takes practice

Bobby

I put both of my "kids" into performance muscle-car vehicles although they were fairly tame. We went out to a place where they could see what the car would do so they'd get it, and not try to discover it in public. We wouldn't let them have friends in the car for 6 months - Pissed them off - Oh Well...... Not gonna kill someone elses kid.......

If you have a good relationship with your kids, they generally come to understand what right and wrong is. They don't always abide by it, but you do your best. It's all you can do.

I had two words of wisdom for my kids.

1) Mom and I love you no matter what - forever
2) Don't do stupid Sh**

Beyond that, you just have to let 'em go and when she drove away in that '67 Fastback, I thought I'd have a heart attack. Hey - She's still around and gave me a Grandaughter .......http://images.ford-trucks.com/forums...cons/icon7.gif

That sums up parenthood. You're a good man. :)

AX- Your course sounded like a lot of fun. At the last AX event I went to, a strictly Porsche one, some kid in his (dad's) brand new 911 turbo spun it round, and here's the best part.

He hit a porto-let and covered his WHITE 911 in poopy! Thrashed up the front tire, so he couldn't just drive away and hide his shame.

I like the hydraulic outriggers, sounds fun.

I'll definitely try to find an involved course in the San Diego area. Again, anyone who lives down here, please share if you've been to a good course!

I have three sons, all interested in cars. Two of them started out with my old 78 F-150 SuperCab LWB w/460. A very tricky truck when there is limited traction, but 5400 lbs of steel and a good view of the road. After they got their own cars, we'd all go to the Friday night run-what-ya-brung drags with our cars. Not 12-second vehicles, but it got the urge out of their systems (I think) and an appreciation for the power of their cars. Despite my best efforts, one of them went dragging at an old airport at night and rolled his car. Same kid, a year later had an accident from followiing too closely and jacking around. Six months driving my very un-cool Saturn while that car was being fixed seems to have made an impression, especially since the repairs also emptied his wallet. Point is, it seems like some kids get it, others don't, no matter what you do or what they're driving.

The old Saturn treatment always works. Are your children all unharmed after the incidents?


Here's something surprising. On the CA Registration card, the truck is clocked at 3280 pounds.

Does that seem lacking?

nope i took a load of s-crap to the yunkterd and when i came back to the scale with me and the son in law in it she weighed i beleive 4100 . im 240 hes 25sum so do the math sounds about right . what discrepancy there is could be attributed to my lil flatty being heavier than your 302 .

So far... but the oldest just put an LS1 in a Porsche 951, the one with a bad history is still driving a 94 Mustang GT. The youngest is a totally different kid and has a Saturn Ion now... There's a lot to be said for the Saturn S-series cars for young drivers, DOHC 4-bangers that are a lot of fun, they're cheap and easy to fix, close to 30 mpg, and American-made. Plastic bodywork so if there is a minor accident, you can slap on a new fender in about an hour. I got hit in it head-on by a Corolla and the Corolla lost.

I was hit at 45 mph from behind with a import and I had dual exhaust tips out the back which extended 3 '' from rear. When impact happened,the import went under my rear and hit the two exhaust tips and bent my exhaust real bad. I had NO DAMAGE--other than rplacing a couple exhaust pipes......The import was totaled and the boy was hospitalized.......my dog smashed against the windshield and was stunned and I was hanging on the wheel,and lap belted,and no harm.......I was on my way to hot-rod nationals,and after a pit-stop at home to fix my exhaust---made it to the show.
The imports front end was angled to impact under my olddie........SCARY!!!!.....Bill