Help removing fenders/rusty bolts
 

I am pretty much discouraged at this point. Two bone contusions, a puncture that broke through my nitrile gloves literally pushing nitrile powder and glove particle into my skin and a nasty strawberry on my forearm and i have gotten exactly one of the 963 bolts off of my valve covers. I tried removing the fenders and griill to get to my engine in my 50 f-1 but cant get a single bolt to come off. if it comes close it stops at the very end because it is stuck there (the nut.)

i'm at a loss. i don't know what to do next short of cutting every bolt off with a cutting wheel that i'll have to go back to harbor freight for (not necessarily a bad thing i guess lol.)

i tried soaking them with a petroleum based product (sea foam was all i had handy and will be going out today to buy wd40 or liquid wrench or maybe both) but that didn't do much more than get the stuck bolts to unscrew just enough to lead me on and then get stuck.

the truck is covered in surface rust pretty much. i feel almost like selling it and buying one that someone has already done the whole body sandblasting deal on lol

would sandblasting help my situation or do i still have to get everything apart to get it sandblasted?

i got my lmc catalog in yesterday and you'd think it was exciting. well it was but today it was depressing lol. i am SOOOOOOOO far away from that beautiful truck on the front cover.


i need your help guys! do i cut away at them? if i do, what do i do about the ones i wont be able to get to?

will liquid wrench or wd40 REALLY dissolve 50 years of rust to where i can easily remove these stubborn screws and bolts?

should i go buy a propane torch to help? i will need to learn how to use it properly, i saw someone once (on tv) torching the ujoints(?) on the driveshaft in order to loosen them enough to remove easily and i always thought there are parts you dont do it on so you can avoid catching it on fire. well it did catch on fire cause it had grease but it was a controlled fire and he kept going. i dont imagine there is any gas i'll have to worry about blowing up on a truck that probably sat for the last 30 years.

ANYway, sorry for the long windedness(not a word i dont think)

so yeah, a torch? a cutting wheel? what? HELP!! PLEASE!!!

thanks guys!


oh by the way, i did actually manage to take the intake plenum(?) off. i can see down into the engine. it looks like hell. there is this thick tar like stuff in there that is blacker than night. and its deep lol and it looks like its caked on

just lots of old oil? any ideas? man it will sure be interesting to clean this engine out.

speaking of which, anyone know if by removing the outer pulleys (that look like the brackets are also the motormounts) i will make the engine fall? looks like it to me but this is my first time working on this engine.


thanks a million in advance for all the help guys!

Cut'em off, you'll want to replace them anyway!!!!

The engine rests on motor mounts between the lower side of the engine and the frame. As long as you don't mess with them, the engine won't fall out. There's also a rear mount probably on the transmission that holds the rear up.

Get on Amazon and buy yourself a good book about restoring old trucks. One example of a good one is "How to Restore Your Ford Pickup" by Tom Brownell

First off, is this a flathead V8? I don't see where you've said, but it makes a HUGE difference!

If it is, those aren't valve covers, they are cylinder heads, and unless you use an impact wrench, you're real likely to break a bunch of them off inside the block.

Those parts with the pulleys are the water pumps, and yessiree Bob, if you take them both off, the engine will be laying down on the front axle!!!

You need a manual!!!
:-RTFM

I stand corrected, I made the dummy assumption that all engines were mounted via conventional motor mounts. Sorry for the confusion

The first I would suggest is removing the entire front clip as one unit. There are only six main bolts holding the entire front clip to the trucks. One each at the back top by the firewall, one each on the back bottom near the firewall and then two holding the bottom of the radiator to the frame cross over. There are also a couple, three bolts holding the bottom of the fenders to the running boards. Once you have the front clip off flip it over and work on it that way, it's a lot easier get to all of the remaining bolts.

This is how I did it when I swapped bodies on my panel:

http://www.fatfenderedtrucks.com/pan.../frameswap.gif

I would recomment using an angle grinder with a cutting disc, heavy gloves and good face and ear protection. You can also use a torch but if you're not familiar using one you can cause a lot more damage to the thin sheetmetal than it's worth. You'll need more than just a propane torch, you'll need a combination Oxy-Acedelene or Oxy-propane torch set up. Make sure you have all debrise away and a couple of good fire extinguishers close by.

Good luck,

Bob

Bob, now I'm impressed, what is the medium, program, method, software that you used for this sequence of pic's. Have never seen anything like it. WOW

And oh by the way, one good looking panel

Bob--wow is right -that is the coolest I have ever seen--I don't get out much!!!I am just now learning to post a picture and when I saw the video picture you put on --I had the whole gang over to watch you build the panel!!!!You are coooolll!!!!Bill

Hey, Felix!

I hear ya, Buddy! Ease up on the body damage.

A very good way to remove rusty bolts is to tighten them until they break. Definately use an impact wrench. It helps to have a buddy hold the other side with a breaker bar. You can do that on the truck or after you remove the whole clip like Bob said.

Works like a charm. You'll have the whole thing apart in an hour. :-D

I feel you pain on the fender bolts - I cut/broke every single one of them on my '52. Most the nuts & bolts weren't even recognizable anymore they were so rusted.

About the gunk in the engine. I assume you have a flathead V8? If so thes were notorious for building up sludge in the lifter valley (and about everywhere else). When I drained the oil from mine there must have been a layer about 1/2" thick on top of the drain plug. Unless you are planning a complete rebuild of the engine, be really careful about disturbing that stuff. Bits that break free can plug up oil passages etc and cause real problems.

thanks a kajillion for all the help guys!

i really appreciate it. bob you're a lifesaver! thanks for telling me where the bolt are lol
i was just going for the bigger ones. who knows how much time you just saved me.

ALBUQ, you are so right man! i DO need the manual! i know there is the manual that would have come with these and then there is the shop manual right? thats the one i need?

ALLDATA wouldn't help would it? we have it at work but i doubt it goes to 1950 lol

i bought a harbor freight compressor and a wrench that i had to wack 3 times on the concrete floor to get it to move. (got what i paid for i guess)

i also got an impact wrench from there. the one for tires . . that -is- what its called isnt it?

i put both to work and they did the opposite. the bolts were too stuck for both the air wrench and the impact wrench!

i truly hope its just the bolts. i mean, i didnt get too crappy of a compressor. its a 100 psi 21 gallon 5hp compressor. that should be enough right?

the wrench tries but just cant move them. the impact wrench also tries but slows down ridiculously (effort wise) and is basically a joke when it comes to trying the bolts. i think i'll have better luck with the regular wrench when the bolts are a little less rusty.

i probably -will- just cut the bolts off though.

it -is- a flathead v8 by the way. i imagine i can't cut THOSE bolts off . . . or wouldnt want to anyway lol

what else? where can i get the manual for this truck? do i have to surch on epay or does someone readily sell it somewhere? thanks again guys! im glad i can always count on all of you.

speaking of that crud/sludge. . . whenever i DO get the front clip off, how can i clean the engine? i mean, i don't think seafoam is gonna cut it lol. im gonna have to like power wash the engine to get as much of that stuff out or soak it in like some sort of acid or degreaser? i dont know . . .

If the engine is that bad in the valley, and you intend to keep this engine, just pull it out and disassemble it. Get it tanked (maybe more than once!!) so you can assess it's condition. It may not need anything, you never know, it doesn't need to have really tight clearances and polished valves to be a good running, great sounding engine. But if it's got crap in the oil system, you'll destroy it by running it.

There are people selling repro's of the factory manual for '48-52 trucks, opn eBay and elesewhere. They are generally $30 plus shipping. The pictures aren't as crisp as a real original manual but good enough. One of the "hot rod your flathead" books is a good supplement, since the factory manual is written for Ford mechanics who had worked on flatheads since '32 and assumes you already know certain things.

Anytime you have to remove head bolts that have sat for a while, and aren't budging with the impact wrench, first tighten them a little, with a breaker bar. Just maybe 30 degrees of movement (less than a flat on the head of the bolt), then try to loosen, repeat as needed. As soon as you get some movement, hit it again with the impact.

Boo-ya! 20 minutes and my front cap is off.Two nuts/bolts under each hood hinge,one on passenger side inner fender to firewall and two under the radiator.Running board nuts/bolts were already off.Got home from work,first decent day in forever and got something done.It's going to be a great summer.Digital cam appears to be broken,all the pics came out black.

-Shawn

You got It Randy Jack. That is the fastest, easest, and dose the least damage. It is Sooooooooo much easyer.

Ok. I've got a new for you guys. First of all, thank you very much for your help/advice. I don't remember if i got around to saying so before. The whole breaker bar and tighten and THEN loosen tip was a lifesaver.

But now, ive got nuts that wont come off of the bolt. Ive got some that wont move at all and the whole bolt with nut and all spins. Then I have some that the nut gets all the way to the top and stops.

I am having a real pain in the @$$ time with taking the front clip off STILL!?!?!?

can you believe this? i have tried sawing at them with an airsaw and that was a joke.

I tried cutting them off with a 3" air cut off wheel thing and that gets me to about half way and then does nothing. As soon as the wheel gets to the bolt, it doesnt go much further if at all.

i tried an air chisel and that chipped some of the nut off but only after i cut into it.
get this though, the nut still wont come off!?!?!?!


i tried with a short handled hack saw . . . what a joke

what else, lets see . . . i tried with a box end wrench on one side and a socket on the other. . . . i can get it to come close to coming off but it stops at the end. and when i say stop i mean dead stop. . . all of a sudden this nut that turning as it lifted my spirits screeches to a dead stop and isnt budging.

whats annoying is i have to do this all on the floor because i can't jack my truck up. my garage isnt long enough to work on my truck AND have the engine hoist under it. at least not if i want to move it later that is. its one of those new construction homes so they dont take practicality into consideration.

if i want to use the hoist and or maybe move it out of my way later, i need to be able to roll the truck back and then move it back up when im done for the day

kind of annoying.

anyway, so what do i do guys? i heard that i should try torching them. i also was told to not bother with a butane/propane torch because it wont heat the bolt/nut up enough. i dont want to spend 300 bucks on an oxyacetylene torch just for a few bolts. surely there is a less expensive method.

sure i could probably use that later on but isnt there a less expensive method? dont get me wrong. at this point. . . i will buy an oxyacetylene torch with a huge smile on my face if you guys tell me its my best or guaranteed bet.

thanks again guys.
you all are invaluable to me.

I've always just removed the front clip, flipped it upside down and cut all the bolts with a 4 1/2" angle grinder. Depending on the truck I can have the entire front clip in pieces in under 1 hour.

It sounds to me like the threads that stick past the nuts are rusty and when you get so far turning them off the rust starts binding up the threads. With a decent impact wrench you should be able to brake them off no problem by tightening them.

You can grind the threads that are sticking past the nut off and then try loosening them this should keep them from binding up, or grind the whole bolt off. You can get one of those nut splitter things and try to cut the nut in half, but they never seem to work very well. Or get a little propane torch and get them as hot as you can and then hose them down with WD-40 this works sometimes. My perferred method is grinding them off or cutting them with a torch but be carefull you can do a lot of damage in a hurry. Another thought, if you have an arc welder get some cutting rod or the smallest rod you can buy and turn the amps way up and cut them off that way.

Hope this helps

ok for some reason, this darned thing didnt save/post my response

i basically said thanks for responding etc etc

also talked about how my air ratchet would just stop when the nut is stuck. its THAT stuck!

also commented on how i had a thought last night after i posted.

im gonna try my old dremel. i seem to remember that thing cutting through just about anything.

i'll let you guys know how that goes.

51dueller, thats my whole problem. i can't get the clip off BECAUSE of these bolts.

at first i needed help taking the fenders off and someone suggested removing the front clip. i started trying to do that but now have run into pretty much the same bolt problem.

at least this gets me to learn my truck real well

ill let you guys know how it goes today.

OK, let's start at the root of this problem: Using the wrong/cheap tools for the job. Buying good tools is a lot cheaper than a trip to the emergency room! Stop shopping at HF, NT and go to Sears (Craftsman brand ONLY), Lowes, or Home Depot (Major brand only). You get what you pay for when buying tools.
1. lube/pentrating oil. There is no good common substitute here! Use only "Liquid wrench" or "PB blaster". Anything else (WD 40, Pepsi, salad oil, pee, etc) is a waste of time/money/effort. Soak the fastener, let sit for 24hrs, soak again allow to sit a few more hrs before attempting removal.
2. wrenches. Use ONLY QUALITY 6 point sockets, box wrenches to remove. Quality sockets have a special design that puts the pressure on the flats of the bolt/nut rather than on the corners to reduce risk of rounding off corners.
3. Impact wrench: Law of deminishing returns- the cheaper the wrench the more air will be needed to drive it to do serious work. Any 1/2" drive air impact wrench that sells for < 100.00 is a kids toy/noisemaker IMHO. A real imact wrench will spec the maximum torque in a couple hundred FOOT pounds range at a certain air pressure/volume. If there is no spec or speced in INCH pounds, buy a good sized breaker bar with the money instead.
4. Compressor. Any 110V portable compressor will be underpowered to drive air tools. Air tools require a large VOLUME of high pressure air that the small compressor will not be capable of sustaining for more than a few seconds of use, then the tool's performance will drop off dramatically. Sorry, that's a fact. The cheaper air tools will give a pressure/volume spec that is required to minimally operate the tool in the air, the real in-use requirement will be 2-4 times that figure.
5. right tool for the job. Spend your money to buy a name brand electric powered 4" angle grinder (Makita brand sells at Home Depot for 40-60.00) a dozen or two 1/16" cut off wheels and MOST IMPORTANT a full face safety shield, heavy leather gloves, and safety glasses. These wheels will catch, break and/or throw pieces of wheel and hot metal with significant force and will do major hand and face damage if you don't protect yourself!!!
When cutting a nut off a bolt, cut the protruding portion of the bolt off first flush with the nut. Try to wrench it off now. If still frozen, DON'T try to cut the nut off flush with the surface, especially on sheet metal. cut straight into the bolt/nut splitting the bolt down the center and stopping just before touching the sheet metal. A pair of vise grips or a cold chisel placed in the slot will make quick work of finishing breaking the nut into 2 pieces.


Footnote: Don't try to save/reuse rusty original fasteners, go to a good fastener supplier and buy replacements. DON'T replace them them with the soft common standard bolts and nuts that you find in the big plastic bins at the local DIY store.

Good post Ax. Well put and well covered.
I have been trying to give you one.
But for me the point system isn't working.

Thanks for the help AxRacer

All my air tools are HF for now. Only because i just started a new better paying job only recently. I have already learned the hard way (as i new before but ignored because i wanted to just get started) that i need better quality tools.

hell, i have had to return just about every single HF tool i own at least once--as in, some i have had to return twice-- because they have died (air tools i mean)

this one tech (oil change guy)at the auto repair shop i work at swears by his HF tools
and says he has had no problems.

the rest use mac or snap on. i guess thats why he is only the oil change/car wash guy. lol

anyway, so yeah, i have my eye on a few air tools from mac. i hear they are more economical than snap on but have a lower quality then snap on.

relative to HF i can't imagine i can go wrong.

i will try pawn shops too, i have seen some good craftsman and snap on tools for cheap (relatively)

everything i own is craftsman except my air tools.

and my breaker bar. it is NT.

as far as an update . . . i got the engine out today. wow what a bitch. in retrospect i guess it wasnt so bad. have you guys seen heroes on nbc? i felt like Hiro when he got to New york the first time lol (if you watch it you know what i mean--if you dont, feel safe in knowing i did one of those dorky "i did it" type of cheers lol)

i was able to use my air cut of wheel (3'') to cut into the one motor mount hole that was left and then when i couldnt get the nut to come off i got pissed and started whacking the **** out of the bolt just cause i was pissed not cause i thought it would help and wouldn't you know . . . the sun of a bitch popped right out! lol

i was like . . . whaaa??? yeahhh!!! and whacked harder lol
i then proceeded to get all the bolts off of the bellhousing which i later learned i didnt need to do and started lifting the engine. the rest is history . . .

still got the damned front clip on though lol

i bought an air chisel yesterday to help and it has somewhat helped. i couldnt find my dremel so i used an HF copy that i bought for my mom since she requested it for a ack up for her craft stuff and that didnt go well either.

it is cordless so
a. if it isnt fully charged it starts dying quickly.
b. once you give it a load it caves.

so back to the drawing board on the front clip.

better tools, thats my only option left here???

i dont know that a nut splitter will work for me in some tight spaces.

i can't find one in the stores to begin with. well okay i only tried one store . . . the auto parts place we buy from. . . an independent. " if we can't get it no one can" type of deal. . . he told me they dont have it.

home depot perhaps?

oxyacetylene torch?

butane/propane torch first since it will be cheaper?

im at a loss guys. help me out. thank a million

for listening/reading and for helping

As AX said, you need a lot of air to run most tools. It's particularly true of the cut off tools. A small compressor will never be able to run one.

Cal

i have a 120v (which keeps tripping my circuit breaker) 5hp 100 psi 21 gallon compressor. this considered to be small?

I run a 6.5 HP 220 volt air compressor with a 60 gal tank, 1/2 inch hose and GP air tools. Stuff moves or brakes first time every time.

You know I am surprised to see that no one mentioned using a propane torch to heat the threads of the bolts until red hot then spray them with PB Blaster. The sudden cooling will flake off the rust. Then loosen the hardware until it starts getting tight then work the bolts back and forth until they come out. The same thing is used to pull stubborn exhaust port bolts that snapped on a set of heads. Takes a little bit of patients but it does work.

i have mentioned it but no one has agreed nor denied that i should use it.

i was told by someone else that propane will not get it hot enough.
how much does a propane torch run anyway? is home depot the best place to get it from?

In a word....yes.

I run a 220V blackmax, 5 HP, 60 gallon tank. It has a hard time keeping up with a DA and some other major air tools. It is ok, but not the best.

I need a two stage (someday when I get rich! :-missingt ).


EDIT: I will admit I have a few HF tools. They are ones I am pretty sure I will only use once or twice though. Even some of those have been returned once.

If it is something I know I will use on a regular basis, I go for the name brands.

I mentioned heating the bolts and spraying with penetrating oil a few posts back, I think its worth a try. Ax is right you need good quality tools, my compresser requires 220v 40Amp to run it, it wasent cheap but it will run almost any common air tool all day long. Having the right tools will shurly make working on your truck more enjoyable and you will be able to get more done faster.

My brother swears by his HF tools, I have a lot less luck and faith in them. I have bought a number of quality air tools on ebay, I just bought an IR commercial duty right angle die grinder with compact belt sander attachment. I just make sure I buy from someone with a high feedback score and buy products that still have repair parts available.
A propane torch will get a bolt red hot, but I would not heat bolts holding sheet metal. The likelyhood is that you'll end up warping adjacent panels before you get the bolt loose. :(
I have a Milwaulkee 18V cordless impact wrench that is as powerful as any air powered one, that we use to change our race tires with, but it cost 350.00.
Mac tools are excellent professional quality as are Proto. Some of my favorite hand tools are Kobalt tools, they are made by Snap-on and sold at Lowes. My local Lowes has reduced their Kobalt inventory a lot tho. Snap-on is real high quality, but they are mighty pricey.

I found the most effective tool on my front clip was a dremel with reinforced cut off disks. Just cut through the bolt and nut as tight to the sheet metal as you can get. Works good in tight spaces. You will go thourgh alot of those disks though.....

Quit screwing aound with air tools, especaiily if you are running such a small compressor. Wha you have for a compressor will fill tir5es and run a nail gun or somthing that doesn't require large volume sof air. It won't do but so well with an impact wrench and will suck running an anlge or straight grinder.

Solution: Purhcase a descent ELECTRIC straight grinder and ELECTRIC angle grinder. I've removed a half dozen front clips now and broken all but one down. I've done this in my garage (first one), at a farm in Indiana with the help of a couple of guys I didn't even know, and my last one was back in August in southern Lousiana in the sun when it was about 98*degerees outside. The LA truck I disassembled from something that ran, down to the frame in less than eight hours and had the front clip, engine, cab, and tranny loaded on my trailer for the trip back to Houston. My only help on that truck was my mentally challenged younger brother. Point of me telling you all of this is that it can be done.

First step is to remove the hood. I'm going to assume you've already done this.

Next thing you should know is that half of the bolts that hold on the front clip are the ones attaching the lower rear portion of the front fenders to the running board. These are all carraige bolts or they were orriginally. This portion of the fender is almost always rusted up pretty good and if it hasn't been bondo'd or had someother repair made to it, it probably will require some work. At least I am assuming so. Use ELECTRIC GRINDER to cut these bolts off. Be as careful as you can but if the area is already pretty rusty, you will probably be doing body work in this area anyway. WHERE HEAVY GLOVES WHEN YOU DO THIS!!!!!!! I got sloppy and in a hurry on the LA truck did not wear gloves when cutting off one of the passenger side fender to running board bolts and cut the primary joing on my left index finger down to the bone. Very stupid mistake on my part. Like you, I was getting frustrated with lack of progress. Unlike you, I only had a few hours in which to get this done and I got sloppy. Don't make the same mistake I did. Fortunately, everything turned out OK, but I'm lucky I didn't cut off my finger.

The remaining bolts are pretty easy to find. I bleieve there is one bolt on each side that ties the inner fender to the frame, and the radiator support bolts with the springs. There are I believe two other bolts (one per side that hold the fender to the firewall. That is it. You snip a couple of wires and the whole thing pulls off with two or three people.

The worst bolts are the the fender to running board bolts. Take your time and work on them one at a time. If you get frustrted, get up and walk away for a while. Whatever you have right now, somebody has had to remove worse and they got it done. You will too.

Don't waste time trying to soak the bolts in penatrant oil. You may get one or two that way but the rest aren't coming off and will have to be cut. Meanwhile, you had to wait 24 hours for them to soak.

Another important point. Where good eye protection.

Lastly, you may not be able to cut through alll of the bolts because the electric grinders tend to be a little bulkier than their air counter parts. Cut what you can, then use a chisel, hacksaw, visegrip, whatever toi finsih the job. Remember, you aren't being scored on how nice the bolts look when you get them out. It's oinly improtant that you get them out.

I would also suggest that you visit your local Sears store. They have some great tools for gripping stripped nut and bolt heads that actually work pretty well. I would cut first and use these things later on the ones you can't cut all the way through for whatever reason. They will allow you get enough grip to snal off the weakened and partially cut throuhg bolts.

Use cutting wheels, not grinding wheels for this.

Good luck and stick with it.

The 4-1/2" angle grinder at HF should make quick work of the bolts it can reach.

I have a Sears rotary cutting tool, like a Roto-zip, that has a flex shaft, you might try something like that.

Has anyone tried drilling out the center of a bolt to weaken it prior to hitting it with the torque wrench? Perhaps use a drill that's a little smaller than the minor diameter of the bolt?

Cal