E 85 ethanol/gas
 

new gas station just opened in town and i hear they have 85% ethanol 15%gasoline available in addition to regular and premuim. its 105 octane. whats everybody's thoughts . can only be ran in a flex fuel vehicle right? ive been runnin 10% ethanol in my 83 since at caseys gas stations here 89 octane is cheaper than 87 because (i'm guessin)its 10%ehthanol in the 89 and the 87 is straight gas. makin everything run on corn would do wonders for us- no more foriegn oil dependance, good for farmers- would raise the price of corn, which is practacly worthless now, plus i hear it burns cleaner and hotter, right? plus 105 octane would be cool.

check out the alternative fuels forum, we have had a number of discussions there. BTW, the ethanol actually burns a bit cooler, but more staedy burn rather than a quick pop like gasoline, the burn pattern is more like a diesel, slower and steady.

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-Matt :-tap

since this is kind of a new focus thread, i figured it would be a good place to post the info on biomass ethanol production I found:here

Sounds like something I could use in my truck so I could turn the timing back up to optimal. Now if I could find it around here... :-X16

I'm curious, how does the price of this stuff compare to regular or 10% ethanol?

it's still new, but once in production is supposed to be considerably cheaper to produce, as it has multiple ways of returning on the investment, and woulkd be self supported as far as the energy requirements go. The atricle claimed it could sell for .51 to .83 I think it said, but it also produces the fuel to heat the process, feed for livestock, and the ethanol. It is still about the same as grain based ethanol as far as composition and such, and 100% ethanol is about 110 octane, E85 is 105 octane. The pumps will be coming your way eventually, but that is the infrastructure problem that keeps being mentioned.

Realistically, there is NO infrastructure problem. E85 uses the same transport,storage and delivery devices as straight petrol, or E10. There are minor changes with seals,gaskets and hoses for the caustic nature of the higher ethanol content.

The problem is that a pump/storage tank combo, costs roughly 40k to purchase and install. Couple that with the small percentage of vehicles that are equipped to properly burn E85, and you don't have a large enough market to justify installing the pumps.

Now, add to that the fact that the oil companies own and maintain the system of production and distribution of motor fuels, and we get to the real issues surrounding E85.

Oil doesn't control ethanol production, but they control the needed distribution. Does anyone honestly believe that the oil companies are the least bit interested in allowing in a fuel, that they only contribute 15% of its make-up, when now they control 90%?

That IS the infrastructure problem... the lack of distribution is infrastructure. The pumps and tanks to distribute it are infrastructure, the resistance to it is a problem for the infrastructure. I know it wouldn't take a lot to convert, but they are unwilling. True, there is a smaller percentage of E85 ready vehicles, but there are already millions out in the real world, and more coming each year. Many people are unaware they are running a flex fuel capable vehicle, because the whole model line is flex capable, rather than just special editions. here is the list of E85 vehicles:

Pickups:

All 1999-2002 Ford 3.0L Ranger pickups , 2WD, 4WD
Selected 1999, 2001 Mazda 3.0L B3000 pickups
All 2001-2002 Ford 3.0L Ranger 4x2 extended cab pickups
Selected 1999-2002 Mazda 3.0L B3000 pickups
All 2000-2002 GM 2.2L 4-cyl Chevy S-10 2WD pickups (after Dec.'99)
All 2000-2002 GMC 2.2L Sonoma 2WD pickups (after Dec.'99)
All 2000-2001 ISUZU 2.2L Hombre pickup (after Dec.'99)
Selected 2002 GMC 5.3L (vortec) Sierra pickups
Selected 2002 GMC 5.3L (vortec) Silverado pickups
All 2003 Chevrolet 5.3L Avalanche 4-door pickups

Minivans:

All 1998-2002 Chrysler 3.3L Town & Country minivans
All 1998-2002 Dodge 3.3L Caravan & Grand Caravan minivans
All 1998-2002 Plymouth/Chrysler Voyager minivans, 3.3L

Cars and Wagons:

Selected 1995-2002 Ford 3.0L Taurus sedans
Selected 2001 Mercury 3.0L Sable (look for "Road & Leaf")
Selected 2002 Ford 3.0L Taurus sedans and wagons

Sports Utility Vehicles:

Selected 2001-2002 Ford 4.0L Explorer, 2-door (early 2002)
Selected 2002 Ford 4.0L Explorer, 4-door (Nov 2001 ?)
Selected 2002 Ford 4.0L Explorer Sports 2-door (Nov 2001 ?)
Selected 2002 Ford 4.0L Explorer Sport Trac (Nov. 2001 ?)
Selected 2002 Mercury 4.0L Mountaineer (early 2002)
All 2002 GM 5.3L (vortec) Suburban SUVs
All 2002 GM 5.3L (vortec) Tahoe SUVs
All 2002 GM 5.3L (vortec) Denalis
All 2002 GM 5.3L (vortec) Yukon & Yukon XL SUVs

VIN Information:

Vehicle Make and Model Characters 2 & 3 Character 8
Ford Taurus FA 2
Ford Ranger FT V
Ford Explorer FT K
Ford Sport Trac FT K (and E?)

Fellro86,

Thanks for the list of DFVs. Don't forget the Crown Vic/Mercury Marquis,

One way to get E85 distribution is to sell at heating oil distributors. Many of these cos are putting in gas and diesel pumps, and setting up an E85 tank isn't such a big deal for them.

The big oil cos depend on these distributors to sell heating oil, off-road diesel, bulk lubricants, etc., so they aren't likely to prevent them from selling E85. Also, such action would be a violation of the Sherman Act; conviction could mean jail time.

Bill

Not sure what the price of E85 is in other areas, but in southern Illinois there is quite a bit cheaper than regular gas. The E85 is about $1.60, and gas is $2.00+.

They won't come out and ban them but a 'delay' in delivery on HHO, in January. Or a delay of Off-road diesel two weeks before harvest, would be a huge message to a distributor.

Whowey,

You're right to be suspicious of the business practices of "big oil." And big business in general hasn't demonstrated trustworthiness, to say the least.

But consider this: Let's say I'm a fuel distributor with a tractor-trailer at the terminal of a producer, and he says, "We don't have any HHO for you today, sorry." He can do that legally, even if he has oil available. But if I go around to several terminals and encounter the same situation, that is "prima facie" (on its face) evidence that the producers have colluded to restrict trade. Violation of the Sherman Antitrust Act (nothing new -- act is over 90 yrs old).

Sherman Act offenses are criminal acts -- execs have done jail time, e.g., three VPs from General Electric in the 1970s went to prison for 5 years. So it's not a simple matter for producers to screw distributors in this situation. But some will probably try.

But, you as a distributor sign a contract with a producer, that restricts or prohibits you from doing business with other producers. The producers use those contracts as a 'bludogening' stick to keep distributors in line. The distributors don't have any choice in the manner. If you refuse to sign the contracts, the producers will refuse your business, or only agree to sell products that don't sell. So,no they don't collude. But if you are a ExxonMobil dealer, an RDP, or Marathon load-out point won't take your truck in either.

My wife manages a station in a chain of about 20 stations. The chain's contract to carry RDP products expired, They refused to ship even the most basic blends needed to keep the stations open until a new contract was in place. The stations carry RDP trademarked brand on them, so they are unable to purchase fuels or lubes from other suppliers as a term of the branding agreements.