Building a "dream" 460
 

Ok all you DD gurus, and mega tuners out there,

I have suffered the worst kind of trouble with my 460; it blew up on me last night on the highway, loud bang, parts bouncing underneath the chassis, when I got it stopped the motor was still running, if you can believe that, but it was bleeding [oil and coolant] from a hole in the oil pan, where I believe part of the #7 connecting rod exited the pan (will have more tomorrow evening as I'm pulling the motor to survey the damage).

I'm creating this post for the opportunity to get everyone's opinion on how I should rebuild the motor; rods, crank, cam, block, heads, porting/no porting etc., for a really tough puller (above motor got 40k miles before it suicided itself).

Criteria:
'79 F150 4x4 460 EFI
C6 Trannie into a NP205 t-case
3.50 gears F&R, 31"x10.5" tires
I use this truck to haul a 1000lb camper and 800 + lbs of dirt bikes and trailer over 10,000' (Vail pass) at +65 MPH, double digit mileage preferred, and as a daily driver during inclement weather :|

Current cam is CompCams 268H (34-227-4) which recorded a respectable 256.6 RWHP @ 4350 and 348.1 ft-lbs @ 2350 on the chassis dyno, seems to get the job done, but it drinks a lot of fuel doing it, ~7.6 mpg
D1VE Block - 2 bolt (engine came out of a '73 merc; saved all but the pistons, lifters, and pushrods).
D2VE (92cc) heads with AIR injection ports (needs to pass the CO emissions test)
Momar custom EFI setup on Edlebrock Torker II intake - 31lb/hr injectors, 1k CFM TTL body - should be good for at least 400 HP

Questions: (as a starting point)
If the block is salvageable should I keep it?
Do I find a truck engine and start with that, or just a block and build from there?
Get a factory short/long block and use it?
It would be great if budget allowed for one of those nice 466 "460 Cobra Jet" crate motors from Ford racing :) but I can't afford the $5700 price tag...

I look forward to all of your posts, so...
Let the suggestions begin...


-Pete
'79 F150 4x4, C6, EFI 460

FYI - all suggestions are presuming that you want to keep your truck as a haul/tow vehicle. The suggestions are weighted heavily to the low rpm torque / efficiency end of the scale.

Question - will your budget allow for a set of aftermarket heads, a stroker kit, and the expense of a roller cam retrofit?

If so, then.....

Your block, but only if it's not cracked and is boreable/rebuildable.
Ford Motorsport Cobra Jet heads (the current Kaase design) port matched and blended
A mild hydraulic roller cam (like the Crane 311-2s-12)
A one of the 500-520 cid stroker kits currently available.
Something along the lines of 10.5:1 CR (achievable with aluminum heads)
A good set of headers with 2" to 2-1/4" primaries.
The ever effective Weiand Stealth intake topped with a 900-950 cfm carb.

DD puts the above combo at 562 HP @ 5000 RPM and a whopping 651 lb-ft torque from 2500 to 4000 RPM! In fact, there is 642 lb-ft on tap at 2500 RPM and it doesn't drop below 600 lb-ft until 5000 RPM!

If the above combo isn't in your budget, then something a bit more modest, perhaps?

72cc heads
Your block and crank (if possible) with all the right machine shop treatments
Pistons in the 9.5:1 CR range.
Headers in with 1-3/4" to 1-7/8" primaries.
A good hydraulic cam like the Lunati 00096
Weiand Stealth non CJ version
A 750 cfm vac secondary carb (or aftermarket throttle body fuel injection)

This setup makes 441 HP and 515 lb-ft torque on DD.

For something in between, take the second setup and simply swap cams to the Crane hydraulic ROLLER unit spec's in the first build option. This punches the numbers to 495 HP and 564 lb-ft torque. Not a bad return on your HP dollars, especially given where it beefs up the powerband and the fact that it will probably increase your fuel efficiency by at least a small margin.

Brad

Oops, just saw your part about having to have the air injection for CO emission. That pretty much slams all the stuff I said above. Darn.

Brad

whats wrong with running air injection on a trick setup?

With all that work for what you suggested, its not that much more work to weld onto the header tubes threaded fittings to accept the factory ford air injection lines, then plumb it up normally, and use a large aftermarket cat.

Also, before anything is purchased, assembled or run, verify that your 79 truck actually gets emissions tested. A lot of states don't test vehicles over 25 years old, which your truck, is darn close to.

It does get tested, the "factory" AIR injection is done through the heads via a 5/8" port in the back, I could bung up the headers, but it's soooo ugly.... It already has dual, high flow CATS with dual 2.5" pipes into a Maganaflow x-pipe muffler. The "hot" air injection is accomplished through the CATS, but CO says it still has to have the "factory" upstream system for startup, which makes no sense to me but, OK, I gotta have it.

Results of the autopsy:
Dipstick "plate" was loose prior to removal of the engine from vehicle
Rotation of engine to inverted position [on an engine stand], for removal of oil pan, was accompanied by the sound of many objects in oil pan; both large and small in sound
Hole in left side encompasses oil pan and lower block - oil pan mating surface; probable exit wound from flying debris
Oil pan had to be "adjusted" with a hammer to remove one right side bolt
Removal of oil pan reveals the #7 connecting rod free from crank, #7 piston appears to have no skirt or lower portion whatsoever but remains in the #7 bore
Debris in oil pan consists of #7 connecting rod with wrist pin still attached but missing rod bolts, multiple pieces of aluminum ranging in size from < 1mm to 3-4cm in size, two mutilated bearing halves - connecting rod "bottom end," and the connecting rod cap still bolted to the connecting rod bolts, but not attached to rod.
Removal of the left head reveals a small piece of debris in #6 cylinder - probably from rotating the engine upside down; all valves appear to have suffered no damage but sever blackening of the cylinder heads reveals presence of oil in combustion chambers of all 8 cylinders
Removal of the #7 piston is accomplished revealing two distinct pieces of piston held together by the oil rings, and have no substance below the upper 5mm of the wrist pin sockets

ok, so the next question is can I get a "performance" short block or do a get a doner block from the grave yard and start from scratch; new pistions (hyperettic or foreged), connecting rods, crank is slightly beat up, will have to have if checked for twisting/warping/cracking and balanced/pollished if ok, new oil pan, heads?

Thoughts?

-Pete

Why not bite the bullet - for only a little more than what you would pay to get a replacement block, parts, and machine work you can get an assembled 514 Ford Motorsport short block. Go here to see specs and such. It's set up for 9.8:1 CR with 72cc heads, but a good machinist could take your heads and shave them just so. That and a thin head gasket to get you somewhere close in the CR dept (figure around 9.25-9.5 or so). Some port matching and bowl blending should help them breath a lot better and would help maximize power from the extra cubes. And the setup would maintain the stock mounting locations and emissions stuff.

With an 850cfm carb on a Weiand Stealth, 2" primary headers, and the Crane 311-2S-12 roller cam....

RPM HP / Torque
2000 234 / 614
2500 295 / 619
3000 353 / 619
3500 412 / 619
4000 464 / 609
4500 501 / 585
5000 517 / 542
5500 501 / 479
6000 459 / 402

Of course, you may have to start replacing driveline parts with that much torque on tap.

Brad

This is what I would do.

Because you have emission to contend with get a set of D3VE. The D2 heads make good boat anchors but that's about it. Get them ported but retain the small valves. Contact Scott for your head work at http://www.reincarnation-automotive.com/index.html . He is very good at what he does. He may even have a set of D3VE's at the shop.

For a block I would get a D1VE, 73-79 out of a boneyard unless you block is salvagable. I like the extra deck height, gives you more options. Once you have a good block, sonic checked and mag'd I would get a Scat 460 rotating assembly with 15cc pistons. This will keep you compression at about 9:1. This would run about $1000 for the rotating assembly.

Your current cam is not the best choice for a 460. You need a cam with 10 deg more duration on the exhaust side to help flow. I would get a X4256H or X4262 Extreme 4x4 cam for Comps. Scott has chassis dyno'd the above config with the X4256H cam and gotten 454 pound feet @ 1,500 RPM and 260 RWHP at 4,500.

The nice thing about this setup is you should be able to do it for under $5000 and will not require any extra parts like a new torque converter, etc.

thought about that (FordRacing - looked at the 650HP 514cid), but that opens up a whole other can of worms; that being the 140k miles on a stock C6. I'd have to get it [trannie] re-worked for sure or find something else to put in it (and that reduces my engine budget), or the same would be likely to hapen to it.... I think that if I can build for about 500-550 ft.lbs and get a torque curve (-10%) that runs through about 4000 (360-400 HP @ 4200) it should be good for what I'm using it for, and be strong enough to handle it for 200k miles?

I didn't see a short block option on FordRacing.com, only the three 460 "Cobra Jet" long blocks, are they available there? Where else can I find "performance" short blocks?

-Pete

C6's are nearly indestructible, and these days they can be had dirt cheap. I wouldn't worry about it.
DannyP

Ditto what DannyP said. I've seen bone stock C6s with more than 800hp pushed through them with no trouble. With your mileage it might not be a bad idea to get a rebuild as the clutches and seals are probably pretty well gone by now, especially with you pulling stuff in the mountains.

Pete, you were asking about 514 short block specs. Click here to link to the Ford Racing Parts page with the info you're looking for.

Brad

Actually had been planning on swapping in an E4OD until the blow up. I'm guessing that this is the OD version of C6. Have been poking around the web and have come accross some "standard" upgrades that will help to bullit-proof the unit, any problems with puncing 600HP throught this unit?

-Pete

"any problems with puncing 600HP throught this unit?"

The E4OD is what backs up the 2nd Gen Lightnings. Lots of guys are putting down around 500 at the rear wheels. Most of them have upgraded to a Monster Box E4OD from Gregg Evans. Some for insurance, some because their factory tranny blew up. All that goes to say, that, a stock E4OD is strong but not bullet proof. A Monster Box IS bullet proof.

As for the engine combo, look up Scott at MPG heads. He does good work on BBF heads, and he's even local for you. He can port D3's on a CNC machine. You could some good power with his heads. Also, if you need to keep using the Torker with the EFI setup then I would definitely step up the cubic inches. That intake is hungry for air.

Thanks Bigsnag,

I have been getting a lot of recomendations on getting rid of the Torker, but I'm not sure why? This is a TRUE Multiport setup, not one of those commander TBI setups sitting in place of a carb. Talking with EdleBrocks tech's they actually recommended their BBC setup and then having the Torker outfitted for MPFI, as did the company that built the setup for me, Momar Injection. The reasoning for letting go of the Torker from a carb and TBI standpoint I understand, fuel fall-out, but that shouldn't happen with an MPFI setup, should it?

Will look into MPG heads, thanks.

Also, I was wondering if anyone has any reason(s) NOT to use a D8TE 460 block? Not sure of the revision level, it was all I could to "brail" out the D8T portion of the casting. I do know that this engine, the D8, has D3VE-A2A heads on it, but is externally balanced, is that a reason to leave the engine alone? Any other blocks I should avoid? Sounds like everyone really likes the D1VE blocks (dam pistons), which is the dead block listed above...

Thanks for the help all,
-Pete

Wow, for that $3250 wanted for the Monster Box you could get a gear vendors and built proof your C6. Scott at Re in"Car"nation High Performance is amazing with iron heads for the 460.

John.