Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums

Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums (https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/index.php)
-   1999 to 2016 Super Duty (https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/forum30/)
-   -   F250 lean bank 2, rich bank 1 (https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1574540-f250-lean-bank-2-rich-bank-1-a.html)

1Truck 03-03-2019 10:02 AM

F250 lean bank 2, rich bank 1
 
Hello guys,
thanks in advance for your help and input.
I have a '01 f250 5.4 triton. I bought it with a bad motor and rebuilt it. Had the heads done, block hot tanked, cylinder bored, etc etc.
the truck runs great, fires right up every time, no noise indicating any issues. But idles pretty rough and has decreased power which worsens around 60mph. Engine seems to run smoothly at cruising speeds. When applying gas at say 60mph it is sluggish and if I apply enough gas for say a 10mph increase the tranny seems to downshift 2 gears about 3 or 4 seconds after pressing pedal but still lacks power. No codes pending or continuous. Have replaced spark plugs, coils, intake manifold gaskets, verified tick from each injector with one being replaced. 3 individual smoke tests have been done, when hot, warm and when cold with no leak found.
looked at live data and the only thing that stands out to me (noob to live data and how to interpret) is the fuel trims. Ltft Bank 2 +25%, bank 1 -20%, both numbers fluctuate with rpms. Stft for both banks range between -3 and +3. Ltft bank 2 goes towards normal with higher rpm but upon reach final cruise speed it goes right back up to +25% and sometimes to +23.44%. Bank 1 between +6% to +9% while driving. Shifting between neutral and directional gears seem to affect trims. Trims seem to have no deviations whether from cold start or after long drive.
fuel pressure 32psi with about 5psi leak down in 5 mins with koeo. Psi norm at idle rising with rpms but not going above about 40psi. I lose about 3psi when turning engine off.
o2 heater and o2 sensor monitors are incomplete. Found this out after buying innova 3160g code reader. I assume this was reset when I reset kam.
after kam reset ltft were norm with stft reading -20/+25 before returning to previous values


on a side note, observing my exhaust, there are sometimes little droplets that appear to be water and have no discernable smell with light black clouding found on outside of droplet. No black grey or blue smoke. No coolant loss. Oil leak from timing cover and oil pan. Oil in filler hole looks contaminated but oil in pan is clean. Filler hole appearance possibly due to very short trips to and from job. No engine knock, no ticking, rattling or anything. I am stumped.

thanks again

alloro 03-03-2019 10:07 AM


Originally Posted by 1Truck (Post 18516812)
Ltft Bank 2 +25%, bank 1 -20%, both numbers fluctuate with rpms.

To me it sounds like you have a lazy injector on the driver's side. Also, your fuel PSI seem to change a bit too much, it should hold fairly steady. So there could be a fuel pump or fuel pressure regulator issue going on. Also yes, clearing codes will clear the memory regarding completed monitor tests.

1Truck 03-03-2019 10:22 AM


Originally Posted by alloro (Post 18516824)
To me it sounds like you have a lazy injector on the driver's side. Also, your fuel PSI seem to change a bit too much, it should hold fairly steady. So there could be a fuel pump or fuel pressure regulator issue going on.

I will redo pressure test to get absolute number as I was rushed the first time. The fuel injector cyl #8 has been an issue. It's been replaced twice. First time because I failed to find a nipped wire. I found and fixed broken wire. Just replaced injector 2 days ago and idle shake got worse. Seems to have less power now than when faulty injector was in place.
Original aus injector replaced with bwd 4 hole mfi injector then re replaced with aus. Aus in there now. After replacing injector ltft for bank 2 went from constant +25 to fluctuating between 23.44 and 25% at idle depending on selected gear. 23.44 in gear, 25 in park/neutral. I plan to have my exhaust pressure tested and leak tested. Other than exhaust and injectors I'm not sure where else to look. When it warms up again I am tearing the front end apart to fix oil leaks and will be checking timing as well. Timing was set right when I put it back together but I saw a video where the cam sprocket was loose and cause similar conditions. But I would think that if timing were the issue then fuel trims would not fluctuate as much.

can there be an issue with the fuel injectors even with the obvious tick sound from each one?

1Truck 03-04-2019 01:19 AM

Obd
 
So I noticed something while I was playing with the scanner. The scanner shows the obd setup in live data. The scanner is showing that the truck has obd1. But my connector is obd2. The 5 monitors I have available according to scanner are ccm, fuel, misfire, o2 sensor and o2 heater. Am not able to view values from both o2s. Cannot see cyl head temp, oil pressure or volt reading from sensors except o2. Like I said previously, I am a noob to live data. I've used simple code readers that give out 3 digit codes. Not sure what I should be able to see, not sure if pcm has been changed.
thanks again guys

projectSHO89 03-04-2019 05:41 AM

Don't have the answers for the drive-ability issues, but I can clear the table of a few items of concern you raised.


The scanner is showing that the truck has obd1. But my connector is obd2.
That's normal unless you happen to have a "California" emissions truck. See https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...bd1-obdll.html

o2 heater and o2 sensor monitors are incomplete.
Normal. They don't exist in the OBD1 calibration.

observing my exhaust, there are sometimes little droplets that appear to be water and have no discernable smell with light black clouding found on outside of droplet.
Normal. Water is a normal by-product of the combustion process. If your exhaust is completely warmed up, the water is emitted as vapor and you wouldn't see it. For a cold exhaust, it condenses into droplets.

Your fuel pressure readings don't concern me, they are within the range of "normal".


I plan to have my exhaust pressure tested and leak tested.
This would be appropriate.

Since you have one bank skewed lean and the other skewed rich, you probably have two separate faults in the vehicle.

1Truck 03-04-2019 09:28 AM

Mode 6
 
I'm sorry guys for the numerous posts but I want to keep everyone updated. I learned how to read the misfire and o2 data from the obd monitor.

I see I have a misfire on cyl 3. So I'm assuming a leaking injector causing the negative ltft. I will be replacing the injector sometime this week. When doing so I will be replacing plug as well and will swap cyl 2 and 3 coils to see if the problem is solved or moves.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.for...2285a53bcb.jpg
Not sure how to interpret test value. What is the F?

and now I'm even more stumped for bank 2 being lean as there is no misfire on that bank.

here are my o2 readings

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.for...c112cb168b.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.for...eff1d5bed7.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.for...560cdaac14.jpg
Apparently i forgot to take pic of second one on this one.

I also have data from $54 and $55.
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.for...28c7981a1b.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.for...67c11776f1.jpg

Let me know if any other info might help.
thanks again everyone for your input.

projectSHO89 03-04-2019 01:04 PM


What is the F?
Values preceded by a $ sign are hexadecimal.

1Truck 03-04-2019 04:43 PM


Originally Posted by projectSHO89 (Post 18519252)
Values preceded by a $ sign are hexadecimal.

ok, that makes more sense. So looking at the photo below, the max value should be 4000 but is well above that if my hex conversion is correct, the test value reads 46,498. This is within the first 10 mins of runtime from warm start.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.for...43d61ce16d.jpg
You'll notice in the next photo that the value has increased again and the display is different. This was around 20 mins of runtime, 4 mins of this being actual drive time, the rest at idle in park. This is apparently the max value able to be shown, 65,535, as it no longer went any higher no matter how long it idled since last sync.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.for...6875e5fe4c.jpg
Even with this wildly high misfire count, the cyl 3 misfire from this morning has disappeared. All other tests show ok and with $0000 either min/max value and $0000 for test value.

I am about to take a 30 min driving trip with up to 15 mins idle time. Will check data at half way point and upon returning home.
If there is no misfire detected from any cyl then how can the misfire count be so high? Is this a timing issue being as the count is calculated using ckp?

projectSHO89 03-04-2019 06:42 PM

You are misinterpreting the data presented. Test $56 is not an error or misfire count.

See relevant OBDII manual. available for download for free at https://www.motorcraftservice.com/freeresources/obd

1Truck 03-05-2019 04:24 PM


Originally Posted by projectSHO89 (Post 18519825)
You are misinterpreting the data presented. Test $56 is not an error or misfire count.

See relevant OBDII manual. available for download for free at https://www.motorcraftservice.com/freeresources/obd

ok, so I looked it over and understand it. But am still lost as to how to use all this info to diagnose my problem.
my problem simplified:
bad idle shake
lean bank 2, rich bank 1
fuel trims for bank 1 within norm while cruising
Ltft bank 2 goes to norm only during acceleration and deceleration, Ltft bank 2 lower in gear than while in neutral/park (automatic tranny)
loss of power which worsens with speed

No intake leaks
sound from injectors consistent with each other
new air filter plugs and cops

to do list:
exhaust pressure/leak tested
recheck each coil using in line tester
replace all plugs, again
Replace all coil boots
check for leaks and spray pattern of each injector
check fuel pressure while driving
check each cylinder for compression, highly doubt this is issue tho.

if problem is still not found or fixed I will be looking to get pcm flashed by stealership.

any ideas welcome. This is not a huge issue as no codes are being thrown so I'm assuming nothing detrimental is happening. But this 8 mpg is killing me!

SuperDutyScaler 03-05-2019 04:45 PM

Clear all codes with the scanner or by manually with the battery. Install 8 new motorcraft plugs, make sure you use acdelco or denso cop boots. If you need a new cop install motorcraft units.
also the I hector should be a motorcraft also not some brand from advanced auto or napa UNLESS it's a motorcraft

SuperDutyScaler 03-05-2019 04:46 PM

You said truck had a bad motor, what was wrong with it? If it had bad injectors or a miss that caused engine damage then the cat or cats on the truck could be clogged causing issues

1Truck 03-05-2019 09:13 PM


Originally Posted by SuperDutyScaler (Post 18521929)
You said truck had a bad motor, what was wrong with it? If it had bad injectors or a miss that caused engine damage then the cat or cats on the truck could be clogged causing issues

yea, it had like 3 plug blowouts, one piston had a hole, guy at head shop said it was likely drilled when repairing one of the blowouts. The crank and cylinders were honed, bored or however you call it. Nothing was too bad. Other than the hole and blowouts, everything appeared normal wear and tear. And while the heads were being done I had the heli coil equivalent be done on remaining plug holes, just to avoid potential issue. Head shop and shop that did my block were reputable well known people so I have faith in the work done. Truck was originally fleet. I am the third owner. Truck was moderately maintained by 2nd owner. Just trusted wrong people to do plug repairs.
however I have had a lot of issues with cyl 8. Its blow out was not repaired using heli coil tech, it was the one that required some long a$# plug. It checks out tho and is done correctly now. Then I had a broken wire on the injector for cyl 8. Have had to replace injector once and plug twice since repairing break.
I dont know how long the injector went without working before I noticed it but the idle shake got worse since replacing it and the first couple of days it seemed to have less power but has since redeemed itself. But still lacks power. To me the exhaust kinda sounds idk, wet, I guess. But not always and I haven't found a pattern either.
and replacing the injector made very little difference to fuel trims.
hopefully performing all of my to do list in a day or 2 will give me a better idea, if not fix the issues altogether.


99f350sd 03-05-2019 09:26 PM

Check the cat.. Do you have one or 2. Start engine run for 15 seconds shut off feel exhaust cyl outlets for heat to see whats not running. will be cooler.

70f100longbed 03-05-2019 09:42 PM

You have a clogged cat on the rich side.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:41 PM.


© 2019 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands