Long start question
 

Quick question:

My 6.0L excursion has been having intermittent long starts (5-7 seconds). Never twice in a row and more often in the morning. Doesnt seem to matter if its cold here (50s) or hot 80s. I've been watching the stats on my torque pro and everything looks good except for the crank and cam sensor . I've narrowed it down to this because on the long starts thats the only thing that doesnt sync. The PIDs i found and programmed in the app seem to be for the crank and cam together. I also have one for the ficm sync. That always comes on right away. At first I replaced the cam sensor pigtail since after inspection it looked like a possible problem. That didnt fix it. This last weekend I had the a/c apart so I changed the crank sensor and the pigtail. That didnt fix it either. So the last item will be the cam sensor but I hear that its pretty rare for those to fail. I've never had the engine cut out or be a problem while driving. Just the slow start. One other thing is I've gone through the harness and checked for any chaffing etc. all looks good.

So I guess the question, or questions, are can the cam sensor actually be the problem while still having the ficm sync? Do cam sensors behave this way or do they just fail?

Thanks in advance! Jeff

So you are saying you get FICM sync sometimes without having cam/crank sync?

Can you post the formulas you have programmed into the gauge for the two sync values?

What engine do you have in it (by this I mean is it an 03, a late 04, or an 05 and up)?

Is it possible you could have been on an incline (front end up) when you get the delayed starts?

This is the 05 engine. Its done it in my driveway and thats flat and I cant say that its ever been associated with an incline. Most places around here are flat

This is crank cam sensor. the values are first then after - are the category they're in. things left blank are left blank below also
2209cd - OBD2 mode and PID
cam crank sync - Long Name
0.0 - Min value
1.0 - Max value
1x - scale factor
- unit type
{A:1} - equation
7EO - OBD Header
- start command
- stop command
does not overide any PID - overides PID
do not store value - remember equation function data

I look forward to hearing back. Thanks! Jeff
ficm sync
2209cd - OBD2 mode and PID
ficm syncc - Long Name
0.0 - Min value
1.0 - Max value
1x - scale factor
- unit type
{A:0} - equation
7EO - OBD Header
- start command
- stop command
does not overide any PID - overides PID
do not store value - remember equation function data

oh and yes the ficm sync always comes on just not the cam crank sync. Thats why I started focusing on the crank sensor because I had done the cam pigtail first. Then got the pids for torque and saw that the ficm was in sync but crank cam was not. I have a ford book on all the sensors and in it it talks about both cam and crank. in the description it talks about the cam sending a signal to the ficm and it talks about the crank sending a signal to pcm. they are just basic descriptions and not specifics but I thought maybe they worded it that way on purpose. So I thought maybe the crank position sensor was the issue since the ficm will sync. Apparantly I was wrong :)

I have the equations "opposite" of yours. Your FICM sync equation is the one I have for cam/crank.

In other words,
{A:1} - equation ..... is for FICM sync
{A:0} - equation ..... is for can/crank sync

I believe the above is correct, because I have seen it stated that you can't get FICM sync without cam/crank sync. Would love to have confirmation on this from Techs, but it makes sense that way.

It would be good to see rpm and FICM voltages (MPower, LPower, and VPower) when you get the long cranks. A video would be great, but posting the values during the early period of cranking when it DIDN'T start would be helpful.

Well that changes everything. I monitor my ficm voltage output and it never goes below 47.5. Usually is 48. I will get the other voltages online and report back.

Thank you!

I have to ask, because if this was my problem I'd hope someone would ask me, why did you rule out all the other possible reasons for long cranks? Mine had a long crank and just needed $50 worth of dummy plugs.

Yah I've already gone through all of that. And Im monitoring all of that as well so unless my gauges are reading incorrectly I should be good on that. As I mentioned that cam and crank sensor werent syncing during the long starts but now it looks like I have that reversed with ficm. Just need to catch it in the act again so I can verify :).

Whats I do know is the ficm output voltage never drops below 74.5 so I think the ficm is good. However it looks like the incoming voltage is dropping to 10 and so is the internal ficm voltage. Its still starting quickly though so will have to see what happens when it does another long start. It got me thinking though sometimes the starter is slower cranking than normal. Wondering if the starter could be worn out causing a massive amp draw and resulting in this low voltage scenario. Or maybe thats normal?

I would charge and load test the batteries before doing anything else. 10v will definitely affect starting and will ultimately stress and damage a stock FICM. Not sure how even FICMrepair.com's upgrades stand up to 10v supply.

Charged them and had them tested this morning. Both batteries are good. I've done a quick inspection and also in the last month done a more thorough inspection of the battery wires and dont see anything that stands out. I do notice that on my torque app the voltage reads lower than at the battery so i think theres a slight drop even before starting. Ive already taken the large posts off and cleaned and greased them. Im gonna take the small leads off also and clean them up too. You have any thoughts on problem areas that I may be over looking?

Well it took forever to finally get it to long start with the monitor hooked up. Actually I gave up and let the wife drive it and as is typical it started having troubles again. She's got the magic touch :)

So heres a pic of what it showed. This is about 6 seconds before the engine fires. Its clearly not a crank cam sensor issue. The ficm output voltage is always good 47.5 to 48 volts. However as you can see the input and corresponding ficm voltages are low. I went through and ran jumper cable on all the big wires from that batteries including the big one that bridges the two and also the main starter wire. Didnt seem to change the low voltage problem. I also put a amp meter on the starter cable and it measured 409 amps. Unfortunately it started really quick everytime. Anyone know if a worn starter will increase amperage the longer it cranks? Seems likely to me. Anyways if you guys wouldnt mind having a look at the graph and share your thoughts I would appreciate it.

Thanks, Jeffhttps://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.for...0700e991bd.jpg

What are your cranking rpms?

Also, you may have a failing FICM relay.

I didnt get the rpms on that graph however the crank rpms are pretty consistent around 100-150. It bounces around in that range. Sometimes it goes slower but I have not seen how low it is when it does that. Also, its never been a slow start when its cranking slow. So basically it always sounds the same as the 100-150 rpms even during the long starts. Sometimes it does crank audibly slower but I have not seen what rpm that is and its never done it while not starting.

The relay should be an easy cheap fix. I will try that

The engine will not start w/ the cranking rpms being below 150.

well thats interesting. So that leads me back to the starter.