'48 F1 239 V8 cranks but wont turnover
 

Hi Folks..fairly new member here and still getting lectured on FTE protocol so please be patient with me.
Several weeks ago I posted that I was having trouble getting my '48 F1 239 Flathead V8 to turn over when engine was warm/hot. Starts when engine is cold but very slow crank.
Got some interesting feedback but..No Cigar.
Lived with the problem for a while until finally this past Saturday battery (new) ran down and..the cheap improper sized positive battery cable (my bad)heated to the point that it toasted a few wires touching around it.
I attempted to replace some of that burned wiring tracing each as best I could.
PO left a real wiring mess with tape, cloth wiring spliced with insulated wiring all bundled and taped together..pheww! Nightmare to trace.
Ok ..we know all that is a no no but the engine started before and anything is possible. The likely problem was created by my not putting something back the way the way it was..I tried replacing the starter motor relay hoping that I fried it along with some wiring..Nope!
I'm attaching some pics hoping to demonstrate the situation including owners manual showing ignition circuit.
BTW..after cleaning and tightening all related connections, the engine never cranked so fast but wont turnover.
Sorry for the long winded post but any thoughts would be appreciated.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.for...199bff4550.jpg
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https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.for...52ad5aae91.jpg


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.for...f0cb037383.jpg


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Even if the points look 'new' they may be fried, as in the contacts welded together. I'd check the gap and the contacts. See if the spark is there while cranking.

is that your fuel filter beside oil filter?
not much gas in it eh

THANKS..I'LL CHECK THE POINTS.
AND YES FUEL FILTER LOOKS LIGHT BUT DON'T REMEMBER IT BEING ANY DIFFERENT.
ILL CHECK IT OUT

A couple things: Do I see a flathead V8 with the battery on the driver side, in what is normally the six cylinder engine configuration? JMHO, but I believe I would rewire the whole under hood. The shorter the cable to the starter circuit, the better. What gauge are those cables? They do look a bit undersize to me.
Normally speaking, an engine that will turn over by starter power is said to crank. May not start, but if it is turning over, it is cranking.
Please don't take this as criticism, just trying to help.

Thanks ray..yes, I stated in my original post the cables are undersized. New proper sized cables on their way.
The original engine was probably a six.
The engine turns over (cranks) by starter power but won't start.
Again, I'm trying to determine why engine would start an hour or so before cooking some wires which I replaced.
Eventually I will replace the truck's entire wiring harness. For now I just need to keep it running.

F-1

Let's get on the same page with some basics:

The engine cranks but doesn't fire - right?

When cranking, are you getting spark at the plugs?

Does using starting fluid when cranking change anything?

Are all the parts of the voltage regulator intact after the wire melting? (mine weren't)

DW

Those spark plugs don't appear to have been out for years. Clean the rust off the bases then pull them and see what shape they're in. They may have gotten fouled from earlier running. May need some penetrating oil to get them out without stripping them.

fortyniner and al..yes, engine cranks but doesn't fire.
I'll check out your thoughts today.
Thanks

I wondered why the battery was on that side. This place teaches me something new just about every day.

Do you have a heavy ground strap to the sheetmetal?

no Ray..I don't
What is the best way to accomplish this

Get a 10 gauge wire with the appropriate size ends, or a grounding strap like this one:

Help/Universal ground strap (60213) | Ground Strap | AutoZone.com

Attach it to the battery ground cable (at either end) and to the body of the truck. I recommend the firewall. Be sure and clean away any paint, dirt, rust, or grease that could influence the connection.

As mentioned earlier the ignition needs to provide spark. The distributor cap and rotor need to be clean and in good shape. The ignition points are susceptible to fouling from oil or grease on the contact faces. If the points are fouled the current isn't switched and the coil can't make the spark.
The points also rely on a condenser (or capacitor) that helps keep the current from pitting the contacts.
You might want to consider a Pertronix ignition module to replace the distributor points assembly. They're available in 6 volt and 12 volt configurations.

I don't see any mention of checking/replacing the ignition switch.....I had problems with mine not starting for years and then replaced the ignition switch and all is well
Ed
near Philadelphia

Ok..thanks for everyone's input.
As mentioned in my first post on this matter, I replaced some burned wiring (caused by my overheated undersized positive battery cable) and immediately following the engine would not start. I reported that I suspected that I missed something reconnecting the new wiring. BTW..the new cable I received per instructions from LMC Truck is equally as undersizedzed.
In the meantime I replaced the starter motor relay, solenoid, checked the spark at the points, plugs, tightened all related connections. The good news is the engine cranks more quickly but still the engine would not start. Sure enough I found a wire from the ignition switch to the solenoid I neglected to reconnect. BINGO..STARTED RIGHT UP!!
Such a good feeling right?
While driving I noticed the dash gauge showed a slight battery discharge?? No big deal.
Made a few stops and the engine started right up each and every time. That's a first for this truck.
Several hours later got in to start and got nothing more than that clicking sound??
Returned the next morning, engine started right up. Several hours later..nothing.

This is making me crazy..any other ideas my friends?

Replacing the coil, if you haven't, may be a cheap worthwhile investment. Make sure you get the polarity on it correct. Also, if you ar econtinually showing discharge while driving, you may want to check your charging system (generator, voltage regulator etc) as a worn battery may crank, but not give enough umph for a nice spark to get started.

Sorry..left out new coil, voltage regulator and battery (this thing has me going wacky).

I guess I look into charging system

I can appreciate the going wackey! I just spent over a week troubleshooting a crank but no-start (when warm) on my F6. Went through much of what you have with a new coil, bettery, etc... only to finally get it resolved with a new Power Valve in the carb. Good luck and stick with it - there are some good smart people on this forum and I'm sure we'll get you trusting your ride again shortly!

Great. .truck started right up earlier.
Needed to get to home Depot 1 mile from my house
wife at work with the other car
stuck in parking lot with a good 2 hand battery I I took a long just in case
got cables hooked up trying to jump start.
maybe just a little crank
should I wait or call tow?
Oh great cell battery is low!6

Man, that rots! I hope you got her home one way or another. You state "maybe just a crank". Does that mean she was cranking well, cranking weakly, or barely turning over?

without the battery cables hooked up to a second 6v battery in good condition all I got was clicking..with it hooked up got a very weak one second crank.
Just walked home left in home depot parking lot till i figure things out. Cant get a jump start from 12v cars and no one was generous to give me a push start..so much for wearing my US Air Force Veteran hat..lol
Guess I'll go back in a few hours with a friend and see what happens..not very hopeful though

You can safely jump the starter direct with a 12v battery. Make sure the truck is out of gear, parking brake set, and have the ignition switch turned on when you hit it with 12v.
Hook the jumper cable to the starter post or to the starter side of the relay post. Then when you are ready to try to start the engine and the above mentioned, out of gear, brake set, key switch on, etc, touch the other jumper cable to a solid ground. Polarity will not matter. Do not push the starter button. The engine will turn over when you ground the auxiliary battery.

thanks
so im understanding you..both cables are hooked up to the 12v battery before i proceed?

Both cables hooked to the 12 volt battery. Next connection is to the starter or starter relay. Final connection is to a solid ground so as to keep sparks away from the battery and make an easy to reach, away from dangerous moving parts, connection point for the cable handler. We wish you luck.

Just to clarify, you still need the jumpers (+) to (+), (-) to (-). But it's perfectly OIK to jump from a (-) ground car to a (+) ground truck as long as they never physically touch.

With truck now
not getting anything? No sounds? followed your directions

Tap on starter with a hammer, block of wood, something to shock/vibrate the starter. This if you are sure you have good connections with the jumper cables. Suspect bad starter at this point.

You have not mentioned checking, tightening or replacing the ignition switch.
The wire you found not hooked up, was it the switch end 0r solenoid end?
Ed

The wire I accidentally neglected was the switch to solenoid. The wirenoticed liced and apparently came undone when I was tracing and untangling wires under the dash. As soon as I reconnected engine started right up.
Thought I had the problem solved until I drove it forward a while and notice a bit of battery discharge when accelerating. .at idle needle stayed in the middle.
As soon as i turned engine off for a while it would not restart..finally got it started tonight with a few guys pushing me to a jump start
made it home. .now trying to figure out.
BTW. .the 12th to 6v. Idea mentioned earlier actually ended up giving me 2 or 3 weak cranks but not enough to start engine

Jumping a 6v positive ground truck from a 12v battery:

Connect both the + and - leads to the 12v source. Connect the other - lead to the starter post of the starter relay. Touch the remaing + to a convienent ground on the truck to engage the starter. Of course, make sure the parking brake is on, the key is truned on, and that the truck is out of gear.

If you cannot get the starter to turn over, you can try these tricks:

1) Tap with a hammer. This may be all that os required to free it up.
2) Remove the starter, simply to reinstall it after a quick visual instpection of the gears. (the two long bolts, and possibly an oil pan mount). Just note that the two long bolts also hold the starter together. This may be enough to line everything back up again when the hammer dosn't do the trick.
3) Replace the starter/battery cables. Gauge 2 for the battery cables and Gauge 4 for the starter cable. Tractor Supply Company seems to have these at reasonable prices.
4) Replace/rebuild the starter. Napa has the rebuild parts as well as new or rebuilt starters.


As for your amp gauge, a rev in RPMs should show charge unless the battery is heavily drained and taxed. Here are some things to check:

1) That your amp gauge isn't wired backwards.
2) That your Voltage Regulator is wired correctly and properly adjusted.
3) Check your generator function and wiring - maybe repoalrize it?

If you have specific questions about any of the above, you've got lots of resources here!

Charging problem
 

Looking at the picture of your battery, I can't tell if you have the positive (+) post of the battery hooked to ground and the negative (-) hooked to the starter solenoid. It has to be that way or it won't charge. Check that. Also you should buy a battery charger if you don't have one. Don't leave home without a good charge.
Patrick

A quick up date for those of you that tried helping out of a jam yesterday. A quick review..undersized positive bat cable heated and melted a few wires nearby. Replaced them..tightened all related connections and engine cranked faster than before but would not start. Finally found a wire (remember I've got a mix of spaghetti wiring mostly badly frayed cloth spliced with newer (vinyl?) wiring..a real mess.
Finally found a cloth wire spliced that became disconnected when I was tracing things. Went from the BAT side of the starter relay to the ignition switch. Hooked them back together and BINGO!! started right up..drove around for a while I noticed battery gauge discharging. Now What? Got home turned off wouldn't start just clicking. Next morning started right up off to home depot 1 mile away back to start it..dead again. After a few failed attempts to start with a friends 12v battery and with the help and safe instructions from one of our FTE members..finally got it to start with a push. Got home..dead..this morning again started right up. Drove around.
Bottom line here for me..another wire dropped out of now here from under the dash hit the metal foot clutch bar and started sparking while I was driving.
Up to now I have replaced the battery, cables (undersized), coil, starter relay..checked the spark at the points & plugs. If the starter was bad why would it start in the morning?? Gotta be a charging issue. In the meantime went looking for a new 6 volt wiring harness and saw that they run around $300 bucks..Please somebody put me out of misery and shoot me before my wife gets to me first..lol
and sorry..but by now most of you know I'm a long winded fellow.

It's really not reasonable to expect 60+ yr old wiring to be in roadworthy shape, especially after god-knows-how-many PO's have cobbled on it. If you want reliability, you'll need to re-wire it, one way or another. Better than it catching fire and burning to the ground, too.

I spoke of poalrizing the generator earlier. here is an article that brings that down to laymans terms: How to test the generator

You probably do have a charging issue with all the bad wiring. Sparks are not good under the dash or any where in the cab. Rewire it before it burns to the ground. You do carry a fire extinguisher, do you not?
If you jumpered the starter direct as we discussed a few links back and the starter failed to spin, you probably have a starter issue. You put voltage to one side of the starter direct and the frame of the starter is the other side of the circuit. The starter is a pretty simple motor and a good starter will run with that proceedure. Bad brushes or armature in the starter will give the exact problems you are having.
BTW, any vibration to the starter can shake up these marginally worn components mentioned and it may work for a while.
A meter is valuable when troubleshooting this old stuff.

charging problem
 

Have you checked that the + cable goes to ground? You can't just go by the color of the cable or which one fits best on the battery? I know this is pretty basic but it has to be correct first then you can chase your other gremlins.
Patrick:)

The positive + cable hooked up to the BAT side of solenoid and negative - to ground bolt on the the engine. Was hooked up that way when I got the truck. Never had a problem??
I've seen guys refer to this hookup but just figured it was optional depending on other factors and mine was set up negative to ground positive to starter solenoid.
I'm confused. Please help me understand better.
Thanks

Ford used +ground thru 1955
 

Ford used positive ground 6 volt through 1955. Perhaps you switched it with replacing battery and cables. Patrick
OOps I just fixed the last statement to say 6 volt.

Standard original configuration was positive cable to ground, positive ground electrical system. Some where, someone changed yours. It will run that way as you know. That was not an option but modification, usually by some uninformed person.