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-   -   what heads are better ? (https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1315260-what-heads-are-better.html)

B.Petry 05-17-2014 01:55 PM

what heads are better ?
 
I know aluminum but I don't have them on hand .
I am building a 347 and have a set of gt40p and a set of 289 C40E casting heads .
I am going to use a victor Jr intake .

Conanski 05-17-2014 07:24 PM

No contest, the GT40p heads have far better port designs that flow significantly better, and have hardened valve seats.

UNTAMND 05-17-2014 07:55 PM

The 64 heads also are probably the super small heart shaped combustion chamber. You wouldn't want that bump in compression.
Hardened seats are the deal breaker here. The cost to upgrade the 64 heads is more than it's worth.
As far as victor intake... What's your goal. A perf rpm will rev to 6k without a loss in low end.

BaronVonAutomatc 05-17-2014 08:00 PM

Kind of like asking which midget is taller if you're planning on turning serious rpm...

What is the engine going into and what are you going to do with it?

B.Petry 05-17-2014 08:02 PM

I knew y'all were going to say that . They are the small chamber , but they had just been done . Hardened seats and three angle valve job . Picked them up for a hundred .
My angle with the Vic Jr is my truck is light in the rear and I want to hook then get gone .
I am trying to copy a Sherman design 347 .

BaronVonAutomatc 05-18-2014 01:02 PM

What cam is in the engine?

B.Petry 05-18-2014 01:26 PM

None yet . Comp cams told me I would need to run a 280 . Its in an email they sent when I contacted them about matching one up to what I was planning on doing . 4.11 gears and 3000 stall.

Conanski 05-18-2014 04:00 PM


Originally Posted by B.Petry (Post 14357994)
Comp cams told me I would need to run a 280 . Its in an email they sent when I contacted them about matching one up to what I was planning on doing . 4.11 gears and 3000 stall.

Well if you want a motor that makies power from 3000-6000rpm then you need MUCH bigger heads than either of these. If however you want to make use of the heads that are available to you then you need to back down the cam and converter to a 260 and 1500 stall and keep the motor under 5000rpm.

BaronVonAutomatc 05-18-2014 04:20 PM

Yeah, you'll give up some power up top with either of those heads in stock form but with a some porting, etc. they would work okay.

Most Ford V8 auto transmissions shift ~5,000-5,500 rpm at full throttle (depending) so building an engine to make peak HP right in that range should work best.

UNTAMND 05-18-2014 04:48 PM


Originally Posted by BaronVonAutomatc (Post 14358296)
Most Ford V8 auto transmissions shift ~5,000-5,500 rpm at full throttle (depending) so building an engine to make peak HP right in that range should work best.

In stock application yes...
My 4r70 shifts at 6500, my e4od will shift at 6k full throttle, my 460 barely makes it past 5k stock. My c6 shifts at 6800.
It really depends on how the trans is setup, or programmed to shift at.
If you're carb, then a c6 or c4 will shift where you want it to, according to how it's rebuilt.

B.Petry 05-18-2014 05:07 PM

OK.
thanks everyone

B.Petry 05-18-2014 05:53 PM

It will be carbed and i will use a c6. I am not new to building engines , restorations , rods or bracket racing . Its what my dad and grandfather did . They had a , back then it was called a service station and a body shop. I have been away for awhile though. I have always been intrigued by Joe Sherman and his engine builds. He reminds me of the old hot rodders i knew growing up. They had a great understanding of things . Knew what they needed or the end result to be , used what they had or could get easily and made it better. They didnt just open a catalog and order bolt on speed . Sherman reminds me of these old guys. Seems today everybody just bolts things on . Here is an example of what i am going to copy .
400 hp 302 Small-Block - Mustang & Fords Magazine
I am honestly building this truck on a bet . I was bet I couldn't build a vehicle that would run on the street and run mid 7's on the track for less than 4k. I also can't buy things from people I know for cheap as a favor .
I also had to buy the vehicle mind you.
I bought the 289 heads for only a hundred . I will have them ported.
I have 3k left to spend .
Thanks again for all your help

UNTAMND 05-18-2014 06:14 PM

Is it going to be an f100 or f150 truck, or a ranger...
Start stripping it down to nothing.
I hope you're talking 7s in the 1/8 mile, cause you're gonna need a fair amount of nitrous if you're talking 1/4.

Porting and bigger valves will be key, those 64 heads are not what Sherman used, I bet he had bigger valves and some very extensive porting done.
If you had a good trans to start with, I'd get a 3-3200 stall. Don't go too high unless you're really set on a hp level. More hp the higher it will stall. So 3k stall with 350hp will be 3500 with 400hp. Or something close.

B.Petry 05-18-2014 06:22 PM

Its an f100 flareside and I did forget to mention it is in the 1/8 th. I picked up another 302 block for $25. I am going to sell the one that is in it . It runs good , doesn't smoke nor leak oil. That will give me a bit more money to play with. I just today picked up a 6al box for 50.
I am in parts trading mode. Buying and selling to get what I want or need.
I really believe this is within reality.

BaronVonAutomatc 05-18-2014 07:21 PM

Joe is definitely old school, that's for sure. It would be nice if that article went into how he worked the heads. He used to post over on the Ford Muscle board and they've got a dyno board with plenty of engine specs and dyno results. Definitely worth a look if you haven't checked it out.

Sounds like a fun project, good luck.

B.Petry 05-18-2014 07:32 PM

Thanks for the info .
Have a link by chance ?
Don't know if it will do any good but I am going to try and contact him .

BaronVonAutomatc 05-18-2014 08:10 PM

Ford Muscle Forums : Ford Muscle Cars Tech Forum

B.Petry 05-18-2014 09:00 PM

Ford Head Flow Data and Specs
I found a flow chart but the C40E castings arent on there . I wanted to see how big a difference it would be. My dilemma is the 289's have just been done and the P's would have to be .
Any body out there have a chart for the 289?
Baron thanks for the link .

UNTAMND 05-19-2014 06:57 AM

If I remember, the 64 heart shaped combustion chamber heads were the same as the c5 heads, only the c5 heads had a bigger chamber because it wasn't as closed chamber.
I'll say they only flow 155-165 at max lift like the c5 heads.

BaronVonAutomatc 05-19-2014 06:17 PM

Stan Weiss' - Cylinder Head Flow Data at 28 Inches of Water -- DFW / FLW Flow Files for use with Engine Simulation Software

KIDkiser 05-19-2014 06:39 PM


Originally Posted by B.Petry (Post 14358501)
It will be carbed and i will use a c6. I am not new to building engines , restorations , rods or bracket racing . Its what my dad and grandfather did . They had a , back then it was called a service station and a body shop. I have been away for awhile though. I have always been intrigued by Joe Sherman and his engine builds. He reminds me of the old hot rodders i knew growing up. They had a great understanding of things . Knew what they needed or the end result to be , used what they had or could get easily and made it better. They didnt just open a catalog and order bolt on speed . Sherman reminds me of these old guys. Seems today everybody just bolts things on . Here is an example of what i am going to copy .
400 hp 302 Small-Block - Mustang & Fords Magazine
I am honestly building this truck on a bet . I was bet I couldn't build a vehicle that would run on the street and run mid 7's on the track for less than 4k. I also can't buy things from people I know for cheap as a favor .
I also had to buy the vehicle mind you.
I bought the 289 heads for only a hundred . I will have them ported.
I have 3k left to spend .
Thanks again for all your help

Mid 7's and run on the street for less than 4 grand.i hope you didn't bet much.
For starters I wouldn't even think about a 302 I would sneak in a 351w stroked to a 408.that alone with those heads MIGHT get you close.

B.Petry 05-19-2014 08:37 PM

Damon I agree . Cubes = horsepower but I had to think about under 4k. There is more available cheaper speed parts available for a 302.
I still think it can be done .
The bet is just a dollar bet . He told me I couldnt do it. I think I can So here we go.

KIDkiser 05-19-2014 09:39 PM

I see where your coming from,but unless you already have the 347 there's not that much difference between the two kits,plus the 408 will last longer than the 347.

B.Petry 07-24-2014 06:42 PM

http://i1370.photobucket.com/albums/...psbbjdwas3.jpg
Uh-Oh Happy learned to putt!

conger 08-08-2014 08:42 PM


Originally Posted by KIDkiser (Post 14361590)
Mid 7's and run on the street for less than 4 grand.i hope you didn't bet much.
For starters I wouldn't even think about a 302 I would sneak in a 351w stroked to a 408.that alone with those heads MIGHT get you close.

Funny you mentioned the stroked 408. My project car is a Factory Five Cobra and I've got an injected 5.0 in it. My son and I built from the crank up. Kept the bottom end stock, but run a 303 cam,Gt40 heads, explorer intake, 75mm TB and 23Lb injectors. Turns about 375 HP. It gets your attention when to you step into it. However my buddy has that stroked 408 in his. That one will make you wet your pants. If I was doing it again, I would build the 408.

B.Petry 08-08-2014 08:50 PM

I agree. Awesome engines.I would like to build a stroked 351 but like I said 302 parts are all over craigslist as well as scat stroker kits . most times for half of what they cost new. I have yet to run across a 351 kit. I might not get to 7.5 but I will give it my best shot and I am having fun trading parts .

conger 08-08-2014 09:14 PM


Originally Posted by B.Petry (Post 14569040)
I agree. Awesome engines.I would like to build a stroked 351 but like I said 302 parts are all over craigslist as well as scat stroker kits . most times for half of what they cost new. I have yet to run across a 351 kit. I might not get to 7.5 but I will give it my best shot and I am having fun trading parts .

Speaking as someone who's been doing this for a while. Be very careful where you source your parts. Sometimes cheap is just that.... cheap. I've seen engines that were weeks being built and spending thousands of dollars. Only to see all that lost from some junk eBay part.

Dobies4life 08-11-2014 11:11 AM

have you considered some canted valve heads? might be some added cost, but might help achieve the drag goal. Ausie 302c or 2v american cast iron.

it sounds as if you have some machinery available. Im not sure if you can fly cut 302 pistons or not, but boss pistons do get expensive.

how gt40's compare to old cleveland iron, I do not know.

UNTAMND 08-11-2014 11:29 AM

Between spending money on a boss intake, or the old b&a intake (edelbrock was the last to make an intake for Cleveland heads on a Windsor, but not sure if they actually have them in stock, summit has a listing for them last I looked) and the correct pistons for the combustion chamber (another boss issue was when non shaped pistons were used, the combustion wasn't ideal, and less power made)
Then you need to block off bottom water port ideally, and then add a water port to the intake side of the head.

Personally, I'd go for a set of alum heads over the Cleveland head. More intake options and stuff. Unless you don't redo the valves in the c heads, and you do the work yourself for water port, you'll have enough money tied up in the c heads to of bought alum heads.

Good idea, but not many people can pull it off without spending a ton of money.

B.Petry 08-11-2014 06:15 PM

If i have any thing left I will go aluminum . I have a 302 Vic Jr intake and an performer rpm . I picked up a just built 30 over 302 12:1 comp. with scat polished crank ,KB pistons ,eagle rods and ported / polished steel heads roller rockers lunati cam and push rods for $700 . I will post pics later . it isn't the 347 I was wanting to build but it will get me going . I had a deal working for a a 347 balanced rotating Assembly in the box for 800 when I found this engine .


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