DPF modifications?
 

Ok I'm an idiot, or at least impatient. I apologize for this being the third place I posted this. I think I have it correct now.:o

I just bought a 2008 F450 Flatbed truck for my excavation company. Can I drill/punch/destroy the innards of the particulate filter? I was thinking (probably wrong, but I don't know why) that the sensors would never sense
a differential in the pressure and maybe the truck wouldn't regenerate. Anybody know what would happen? I have great hopes of increasing fuel mileage without spending any money.

Thank you for assisting a newbie!

It would go constant regen. You have to tune to delete.

Ok, so help me understand why? I thought the sensors worked on a go/off signal? If there is less restriction why would they signal a regen cycle? Please realize I'm not trying to be difficult, I just "need" to know why things work as they do.. Blame it on my Daddy, when ever I asked a question he would say…"heres the encyclopedia, look it up"! Now it's in my genes!}>

Don't mess with it.
Cost too much to replace.

Buy DPF delete pipe and purchase a DPF delete coder.


If you mess with with the DPF you will be in constant regens.

I don't know for sure whether or not it would go into constant regen, but the truck WILL definitely regen at approximately 600 miles as part of a fail safe parameter in the PCM.

This ^. Beyond that, if you maintain the truck properly you don't need to illegally remove the emissions controls, the truck will run fine with them intact. Further as a commercial entity I expect you will run a greater risk of being inspected, caught with illegally removed emissions controls and heavily fined.

My standard 6.4 recommendations are below. Note that the coolant nitrite testing is especially important for the F450-550 which run at higher RPM and are at greater risk for cavitation issues.

The 6.4 does not typically "self destruct", in many cases it is aided in destructing by operator who do not understand the requirements of the new emissions controlled diesels and use them for the wrong type of service, neglect maintenance, etc. Properly operated and maintained the 6.4 and other emissions controlled diesels do just fine.

Now if you are looking at a used one, you have to be concerned about it's useage and maintenance prior to your purchase. Unlike pre-emissions diesels the post-emissions diesels can go bad very quickly if they are neglected or are used for all short trips.

The problem with assessing a used post-emissions diesel is that much of what you want to inspect is not readily visible. On the 6.4 you would ideally want to inspect the following:

- Lower HFCM fuel filter and housing for signs of gunk buildup, and to ensure the filters have been changed.

- Upper fuel filter, looking in the bottom of the housing for signs of rust spots or metal flakes both of which can mean expensive fuel system repairs.

- The water pump back housing for signs of cavitation damage.

- Coolant nitrite test to see if the coolant has been maintained properly.

- Used oil analysis on a sample with ~5k miles on it.

- Check for signs of leaks at the radiator hose connections and the radiator itself.

Since a used vehicle at a dealer has probably recieved a basic service with new oil and filters, some of the information you want will not be available at all.
Clearly the water pump housing can not be inspected in any reasonable fashion. The lower HFCM filter and housing can't be inspected without draining a quart plus of fuel and making a mess so it's not easily inspected.
The upper fuel filter can be inspected fairly easily with a flashlight, wrench and a container to rest the filter in when removed. This is one inspection you should absolutely do since a high pressure fuel pump and injectors is a good $8k repair.
The coolant nitrite test is another quick and easy test you can do, clip a test strip on the end of a long hemostat and just dunk it in the coolant degas tank, wait the 45 seconds and compare the color chart. Most dealers probably won't change the coolant on a used truck so it your nitrite test shows under 300ppm nitrite, reject the truck for neglected maintenance.

My standard maintenance recommendations for the 6.4:

If you have not owned one of the newer emissions controlled diesels previously (any brand), be aware that they are far more dependent on proper maintenance than earlier diesels.

Key 6.4 maintenance items:

* Oil changes every 5,000 miles, with quality oil (synthetic recommended), used oil analysis (Blackstone) for every change. Use only Motorcraft oil filters or the Racor (OEM) equivalent.

* Fuel filter changes every 10,000 miles. Use only Motorcraft FD4617 or the Racor (OEM) equivalent filters.

* Coolant nitrite testing at least every 15,000 miles. I recommend every 5,000 miles at the same time you do the oil change for simplicity, the test strips are inexpensive. Do not be confused by the test directions warning not to sample from an overflow tank, the 6.4 does not have an overflow tank it has a degas bottle. The degas bottle is part of the coolant loop with constant circulation so it is a valid testing point. I do not bother "taking a sample", I simply clip the test strip on the end of a long hemostat and dunk it in the degas bottle to test. If the test is below 800ppm and above 300ppm add two bottles of VC-8 additive. If below 300ppm the entire coolant system must be flushed with VC-9 cleaner, rinsed well and refilled with new coolant.

* Cooling system flush with VC-9 and refill with Ford Gold coolant every 60,000 miles, sooner if you have neglected testing and the nitrite is under 300ppm.

* Use a quality fuel conditioner such as the Ford PM-22a/23a conditioners at every fueling. They add lubricity to the fuel, something that ULSD is lacking in which helps protect the high pressure (up to 26,000 PSI) fuel pump. They also help to reduce soot production which results in less frequent DPF regens and less fuel dilution in the engine oil.

* Drain the HFCM water separator monthly. The fuel drained can be poured back into the tank carefully leaving behind any water at the bottom of the collection jar (normally very little). If the water separator drain does not flow well or at all, it may be clogged with either parafin blobs or with bacterial growth. In either case at a minimum the drain valve cover needs to be removed and the clog cleared. If the clog is significant the HFCM cover needs to be removed for full cleaning. If the clog is white and waxy it's parafin and not a significant issue. If the clog is brown or similar and more slimy it is bacterial growth and the fuel tank should be "shocked" with a biocide such as Power Service Bio-Kleen which should not be confused with their Diesel-Kleen.

* The truck should not be used for all short trips and stop and go traffic. The 6.4 and other emissions controlled diesels need regular longer periods at highway speeds to allow proper DPF regeneration and to get to proper operating temperature to help reduce fuel contamination in the engine oil.

* The latest PCM flash (11B23) does not provide continuous indication of when a DPF regen is taking place, it does however add much improved engine monitoring for developing issues. Over time you will get to recognize the subtle changes, but I recommend adding something like the ScanGauge II which will allow you to monitor the DPF temperature which is a clear indication that a regen is in progress when over ~600F.

* Avoid shutting the truck down with a regen in progress. If you have to, run the engine at high idle for a few minutes in park before shutting down to allow the turbos to cool down to normal temperatures before shutdown. If you are interrupting the regens you will see it in your Blackstone report, otherwise you should see very little fuel dilution, <1%.

You should also absolutely get the Ford ESP extended warranty, any repairs to the 6.4 are expensive and a single big repair can easily cover the cost of the ESP warranty. The coolant nitrite testing that many people overlook *is* in the owner's manual diesel supplement, so if you neglect it Ford can deny warranty coverage for resulting damage.

Other Super Duty maintenance items:

* Batteries - The batteries in these trucks are not the maintanence free / unmaintainable type, pop the caps to check and top up with distilled water periodically.

* Change transfer case fluid every 60,000 miles.

* Change rear differential fluid every 50,000 miles on DANA axles (F350 DRW and up).

* Change transmission fluid and filter every 60,000 miles on Torqshift transmissions (100k on manual transmissions). If you have the early Torqshift with the external filter the interval is much shorter.

Resources:

Coolant test strips - Buy the 4pk, not the bottle of 50, the strips have expiration dates and you'll only need <10 per year. Most dealer parts counters should have the test strips, NAPA has them, or order direct from Acustrip.
Ford Rotunda 328-2050

Used oil testing - Blackstone Labs, get the pre-paid 6pk of test kits to save a few bucks. You don't need the TBN option:
Order Now

Ford ESP extended warrantys - You can buy them online from real dealers, or use the online price from a real dealer to negotiate a better price from your local dealer. You absolutely want the ESP, while the 6.4 is not problematic as some claim as long as you maintain it properly, nearly any repair is big $ and one good one will cover the ESP cost:
Ford Extended Warranty | Genuine Ford ESP | Discounted Pricing

DPF, oil, coolant temp monitoring - ScangaugeII, you will need to program the X-gauge commands for the 6.4:
ScanGauge - Trip Computer + Digitial Gauges + ScanTools
Ford/Lincoln/Mercury Specific : Linear Logic : Home of the ScanGauge

Still Learning
 

WOW!, WP6529, thank you for the info.
I found your recomendations in another post and saved the link in my favorites! My back ground includes many years working as a mechanic in a Dealership (Chevrolet- eek!), and a city maintenance shop. I appreciate the benefits attributed toward quality maintenance and repairs. Obviously you have considerable experience on these vehicles.
May I ask how you attained it?
I owned a 2001 F250 Superduty w/ 7.3 diesel that received considerable "improvements". The local dyno operator told me my truck held the record for hp / torque, which I took great pride in till the engine broke a connecting rod into two parts, twice!
My lovely wife was not "impressed" and made me promise to "not" modify the engine again! But I have to admit after reading a "whole bunch" of posts and reviews that criticized the reliability and fuel milage, I got worried. The truck I bought (still waiting for its delivery) is a one owner well maintained fleet truck. I will follow your recommendations to the letter and expect great service.
Thank you, again!:)

Some 95,000+ miles with my '09 F350, reading the factory service manual CD (from HELM), reading the various forums, and just generally being a hardcore techie who wants to understand every detail of my $$$ truck and keep it in good shape. So far so good, my truck is still getting typically <0.5% FD and low wear metals. I plan to extend my ESP another 3/48 when I get up to 99K and the current ESP is about to run out. After a few more years I should be ready for a new truck :)

Punching a hole in the DPF will probably result in codes complaining about the DPF pressure since the ECM checks the pressure sensor reading before the truck is started and then expects to see a minimum pressure reading once the engine is running. If there hasn't been a regen after 600+ miles, a failsafe regen is started. Once regen starts, the ECM expects to see a significant temperature rise across the CAT as fuel is squirt out the exhaust. It also checks for consistency among the 3 temperature sensor readings. Unfortunately the only way to bypass the DPF is to tune it.

The $200 (ouch) HELM manual is invaluable source of information :-)

+1 for a scanguage2...I use it to watch the 3 exhaust temperature sensors

Thanks Aquaman
 

Thank you for speaking my language! It is refreshing to hear technical facts instead of wild--s answers based on "common" knowledge.

Do you know of any tuner programing that would override the sensor code to remove the DPF, with out changing the injector dose/timing? I have been driving a 1993 Turbo Cummings in a Ram250 for 10 years, my new truck has twice the power that I am used too. I just want to remove the regen cycles safely to increase fuel milage. The last time I "tuned" my truck it cost me dearly! :-drink

I suspect the fuel savings will take quite a bit of mileage before breaking even since the cost of those tuners is quite high these days. Regen alone costs me about 5-6% fuel penalty...roughly 1-2 gallons of diesel per complete regen depending if I'm in freeway vs city driving....more if regens are constantly being interrupted. EGR use purportedly costs another 5%.

Buy a tuner for power, fun, and getting rid of a huge annoyance, but don't expect miracles from mileage increases. I'm reading 5-10% tops using calculated mpgs in everyday driving and a bit more if towing since EGR would otherwise be used heavily....just consider mpg gains a bonus. I'll bet a lot of the gains would be negated with a heavier foot since you *can* }>

There's H&S, Spartan, DPF-R, and formerly Edge. All of them have gone low-profile now that the EPA has busted Edge and H&S.

BTW, using the encyclopedia tactic on my kids hasn't worked yet...I'm doing something wrong. LOL

Much good info given already.

The trucks computer looks at the sensors, but it needs to see the filter working correctly, otherwise it will trigger engine lights, go into constant regen, and bad things may happen.

Now once you load a custom "DPF OFF" tune into the truck, the world is your oyster. The computer no longer uses the sensors on the exhaust, so you can do whatever you want with it. You can get straight pipe exhaust, through hood exhaust, and you could also drill out the DPF with a bunch of holes, destroying the filter, but keeping stock appearance.
If you run a DPF filter with a DPF off tune, it will eventually plug and you'll be stuck somewhere until you remove the filter.

A DPF off tune, will be a great idea if you can afford it, and you won't get caught with your pants down by a smog inspection problem.

6.4's CAN give good MPG, but IMHO, only if you drive them like intended; highway, towing etc. Use it as a grocery getter or personal chariot, and you'll have crap MPG and problems.

If you plan on using it as a multi purpose vehicle, a tuner is your best friend. :-drink

Thank you Parkland, :-wink so tell me about EGR delete. Can it be done without using a tuner? Will the elimination of the EGR system improve reliability and/or fuel millage? Thank you for taking the time to explain.:-drink

Mark

To be perfectly clear, you can not change out any emission system on the truck, without a tuner.
The computer is smart enough, that it monitors all the sensors, and knows what they should be, for every stock component installed.
It also monitors DPF cycles.

So you can't just measure DPF back pressure when it's clean, then replace it with a pipe that provides the exact same back pressure; even though the computer might see the same pressure, eventually it will realize that the pressure is not rising as it should as the DPF would load, thus engine light would trigger, truck would realise something is wrong, goes into constant regen.

If you were knieving enough, you could probably make a DPF fooler, using valves and thousands of dollars of engineering, to exactly replicate DPF loading and cleaning pressure cycles, but the truck would still go into regen, so nothing gained.
Or, I suspect you could also build a fake sensor system, and imitate loading and unloading to the computer, allowing it to regen without a DPF, but again, would cost tons, and not accomplish anything.

What I'm trying to say, is nobody I've ever heard of, has been able to fool a 6.4 truck emissions system with resistors, trick electronics, or simple methods; the computer will figure out something is wrong, and you're done.

Once you get a tuner, (MUST HAVE DELETE CAPABLE TUNES), you can delete stuff.
You can put custom exhaust, custom intake (I don't recommend, stock is good unless racing), EGR deletes, etc.
The custom tunes disable emissions functions on the engine, so in essence it runs as you would expect.

EGR saves a bit of fuel on a gas motor, because the engine is running in a vacuum, and letting exhaust in with the air means less pumping losses. In a diesel, there is nothing to gain from EGR, it is used solely for emissions purposes. Disabling / removing it, will give you cleaner intake system, and allow parts to be removed off engine, like the big EGR coolers.

If you are just looking to increase mileage a bit, maybe a bit of power, just get a tuner, DPF delete pipe, and call it good. You don't need to replace the entire exhaust, unless you want to. And the stock airbox is really decent, I had an aftermarket intake, and the boot cracked at the turbo, so they are not always better than stock.

Some tunes also disable EGR, but allow it to still be installed. In fact, a couple tunes on the spartan tuner actuate the valve at idle, so it doesn't get stuck. This is helpful because the truck can be turned back to stock to sell it later.

It really just depends what you want, but if you want a nearly stock 6.4 without regens and EGR all the time, just get the tuner, and DPF delete pipe, but make sure the tuner has off road tunes, otherwise it won't disable emissions systems.

Spartan Diesel Technologies

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#4 is most likely what you want, it will allow driving around without the DPF. I know a guy who has "only the delete pipe" as opposed to entire exhaust system, and he has no issues at all, it flows great. The bigger exhaust will sound louder, and on huge tunes like the +350 tune, will help with power a tiny bit. When I say tiny bit, I mean a few more HP on a dyno, but likely nothing you'll feel on the road.


The bigger tunes, 270hp+ and up, can make enough boost to worry about. Stock 6.4 turbo system can make around 60 psi of boost, and that could potentially damage head gaskets. Many run like that and don't blow them, but just letting you know, with this kind of power, there are risks.
Keep in mind, that with the big tunes, the ol 6.4 will make about 600 rear wheel HP, and 1100 ft/lb of TQ, which is amazing for a stock engine.

The 270+hp tunes also start shifting harder, and won't feel stock at all.
The 250 tow tune is a nice tune, really powerful, and feels like stock, but way more power when you need it.

The H&S with DPF delete will perform just fine, with the DOC and muffler left on. I had mine that way for about 20K miles, then the exhaust hanger broke. Big $$ to replace the Ford system, so I just took off the DOC and stock muffler, put on a 4" from downpipe, thru an MBRP muffler and out. Hardly any louder, no regens, but not much gain in MPG.
Joe