DiMora's 400 build - part deux
Hello gentlemen,
This thread will seek your advice concerning my re-build of the heads, cam and valvetrain. I haven't been on here in a while. The car has been sitting in TN at my Grandmother's place, and I brought it back home to Atlanta. It has had a few issues. It started with an overheat. I originally had the engine "professionally" pulled by a local shop and then rebuilt by my friend. My friend did a good job on the rebuild, but the local shop installed the lower radiator hose spring backwards, and spring got sucked into my Edelbrock Performer water pump, causing the lower hose to crush on inlet suction, creating water starvation and an overheat. That was one issue. A second issue, cause unknown, was both push-rods bent at cylinder number 7. I replaced both pushrods and both lifters (used assembly lube, followed proper break-in with a 20 inute run immediately after start, varying RPM between 2,000 and 3,000 RPM. The cam to hydraulic lifter interface at cylinder 7 is totally trashed, lifters are concave, and I am certain the lobe at #7 on the cam is trashed. So...a new cam and lifters are in order. As best I can tell, the lower half (short-block) is all fine. So...let's get on to the re-build: Vehicle: 1978 Ford LTD Landau 2 door Ford 400 bored .030 over to 408 cubic inches Fully balanced and line honed Edelbrock 2171 Intake Edelbrock 1405 600 CFM carb Edelbrock 8844 water pump Edelbrock 7821 Double-roller timing set Pistons: Federal Mogul 427P / Sterling STL-427 P30 pistons (Same thing) 4.030" diameter, 10CC dish Aussie 302 Cleveland 2V "Quench" heads, 62CC chamber (maybe 59CC; I read conflicting numbers on various sites - anyone know how to tell for sure?) C6 transmission Static compression before cam selection I calculated to be 10.028:1 Old cam with the "failed" build was an Edelbrock 2172 with Edelbrock matched lifters. Specs were: @.050": 204 intake 214 Exhaust LSA 112 Intake centerline 107 Lift @ Valve: .484 IN /.510 EX Lift @ Cam: .280 IN / .295 EX The above cam had lots of pinging and detonation, Comp told me it was a poor choice with the Aussie heads and that 10:1 compression I was running. Where I need the forums advice is concerning a new cam for the re-build. Cam will be custom ground and full hydraulic roller, as well as new hydraulic roller rockers. Supporting hardware will be
Here is the crux of the biscuit if you are skimming: How does this cam look to you experts who know how to read a cam and / or have desktop dyno software. This grind was recommended to me by Comp cams. SPEC CARD PART #: 32-000-8 ENGINE: FORD 351C-400M GRINDING INSTRUCTIONS 1 "" "" 2 "" "" 3 GRIND #: FC 3345F /3345F HR112.0 SPC INST 1: SPC INST 2: J. DIAM: STD INT EXH VALVE ADJUSTMENT HYD HYD GROSS VALVE LIFT .520 .520 DURATION @ .006 TAPPET LIFT 282 282 VALVE TIMING OPEN CLOSE @ .050 INT 7 43 EXH 51 1- SPECS FOR CAM INST. @ 108.0 CENTERLINE ASSIGNED TO PRODU INT EXH DURATION @ .050 230.00 230.00 LOBE LIFT .301 .301 LOBE SEPARATION 112.0 FIRING ORDER STD ROCKER ARM RATIO 1.73 1.73 Does that look reasonable? Can anyone calculate dynamic compression with that cam? Can you old timers "look" at the numbers and get a feel for it? Thanks, guys! Shane |
I don't like that piston. You should have a Zero deck piston to take advantage of Quench with the Aussie heads. The 427P is a stock replacement piston and sits at least 0.067" down the hole. See Tim Meyer for the right piston for those heads.
The dynamic CR is about 7.7:1. That is conservative enough, but you should have Quench. Your old DCR was about 9.2:1. It's no wonder that it pinged. My other question is about the cam. Is the cam a Roller Retro-fit or a Custom Billet cam that uses Tie-bar roller lifters? The Roller Retro-fit cams are Reduced Base-circle cams. My last Roller Retro-fit cam failed. Now I have a Comp-cams Custom Billet Cam with Lunati Tie-bar lifters. |
Originally Posted by danlee
(Post 11927722)
I don't like that piston. You should have a Zero deck piston to take advantage of Quench with the Aussie heads. The 427P is a stock replacement piston and sits at least 0.067" down the hole. See Tim Meyer for the right piston for those heads.
The dynamic CR is about 7.7:1. That is conservative enough, but you should have Quench. Your old DCR was about 9.2:1. It's no wonder that it pinged. My other question is about the cam. Is the cam a Roller Retro-fit or a Custom Billet cam that uses Tie-bar roller lifters? The Roller Retro-fit cams are Reduced Base-circle cams. My last Roller Retro-fit cam failed. Now I have a Comp-cams Custom Billet Cam with Lunati Tie-bar lifters. It seems there is so much more knowledge (and of course those new pistons) out there since I did my initial build. When I did my initial build, I purposely went with stock replacements since I had read that Aussie heads were a direct bolt-on if one had OEM pistons in a 351M or 400 and that they provided a proper amount of quench...at the time I built, guys were using Badger flat-tops, if I recall correctly, to raise CR if they did NOT have Aussie heads. Perhaps a thinner head gasket can give me the quench I need? Again, I'll check with Tim on that. To answer your query, the cam grind is a custom ground billet cam with Comp 8931-16 Pro Magnum hydraulic roller lifters: http://static.summitracing.com/globa...CA-8931-16.jpg Since I haven't ordered the cam yet, I can change it to a different grind if need be once a final decision is made on the pistons. I'll keep this thread updated as I find out more information. |
I had another crazy idea...for about $300...I can get my Edelbrock Performer converted to E85 Ethanol.
Now, you need to flow about 40% more fuel with ethanol, but it is cheaper...so cost-wise it may be a wash vs. 93 octane...and I could run high compression...and at ~105 octane detonation probably wouldn't be an issue. Intriguing! |
There is no working with those pistons, they are just way too far below deck to begin with. There had to be a reason that cam went out. Was the preload set correctly, push rod length checked, retainer to guide clearance checked, rockers checked for binding in the fulcrum etc, did you use a cam break in additive, were you adding a ZDDP additive to your oil after the break in oil. Almost no off the shelve oils have enough zinc & pho in them anymore, even the diesel oils have been reduced to the point that they are pretty much no good anymore for a flat cam.
|
Originally Posted by danlee
(Post 11927722)
I don't like that piston. You should have a Zero deck piston to take advantage of Quench with the Aussie heads. The 427P is a stock replacement piston and sits at least 0.067" down the hole. See Tim Meyer for the right piston for those heads.
The dynamic CR is about 7.7:1. That is conservative enough, but you should have Quench. Your old DCR was about 9.2:1. It's no wonder that it pinged. My other question is about the cam. Is the cam a Roller Retro-fit or a Custom Billet cam that uses Tie-bar roller lifters? The Roller Retro-fit cams are Reduced Base-circle cams. My last Roller Retro-fit cam failed. Now I have a Comp-cams Custom Billet Cam with Lunati Tie-bar lifters. |
Originally Posted by mark a.
(Post 11930164)
There is no working with those pistons, they are just way too far below deck to begin with. There had to be a reason that cam went out. Was the preload set correctly, push rod length checked, retainer to guide clearance checked, rockers checked for binding in the fulcrum etc, did you use a cam break in additive, were you adding a ZDDP additive to your oil after the break in oil. Almost no off the shelve oils have enough zinc & pho in them anymore, even the diesel oils have been reduced to the point that they are pretty much no good anymore for a flat cam.
This time around, I will be doing it myself and checking everything. I have a couple books, and of course the internet is now an awesome resource...I'll be posting here for wisdom from you guys. The engine was broken in with assembly lube on all the cam lobes, lifters, etc.
Originally Posted by mark a.
(Post 11930231)
Dan, in your opinion is it worth the roller switch in a 335 ? Is there going to be a seat of the pants very noticable gain from a good flat cam for just street use ? When you add up the expence is it worth it ?
I may outsource the head-build and machining to Tim Meyer if he is interested...I sent him an e-mail yesterday. |
Originally Posted by mark a.
(Post 11930231)
Dan, in your opinion is it worth the roller switch in a 335 ? Is there going to be a seat of the pants very noticable gain from a good flat cam for just street use ? When you add up the expence is it worth it ?
You can also get faster ramp rates, and that translates to longer duration with reduced overlap. Other than these items, it's kind of subjective whether It's worth while to switch. |
Dimora,
Your old setup would have been OK, if you had used a longer duration cam with a later IVC. Of course, it would have so much overlap that the motor would have low vacuum, and poor low end torque. The Edelbrock stuff is for an otherwise stock motor. |
Originally Posted by danlee
(Post 11930527)
Dimora,
Your old setup would have been OK, if you had used a longer duration cam with a later IVC. Of course, it would have so much overlap that the motor would have low vacuum, and poor low end torque. The Edelbrock stuff is for an otherwise stock motor. Do you think my other Edelbrock stuff (intake and carb) is alright for this build? I find it all confusing since the virtues of Aussie quench heads simply bolted to a stock 351M or 400 have been touted for years (and thus my original decision to go with stock pistons with 10CC dish)...but obviously I erred when it came time for a cam selection. The bottom line is now that I have committed to a full roller setup, I need to consult with someone like Tim Meyer so that there is no more guessing and I get a solid build. If that means pulling the motor and doing a piston swap, then that is what I'll do. I don't want to re-build this one again. I know my carb and intake should be fine...the wildcards here are the pistons and the cam grind. Cams are definitely not my area of expertise. I can bake a cake, but I am no chef. I definitely need to follow a recipe to make this work this time around. |
Here are the specs on the pistons I currently have in the block:
Cast; 2 -, 5/64 Groove, 1 - 3/16 Groove, 1.630 CD, Recessed Head .145 deep x 3.000 dia. w/2 valve reliefs - 7.9:1 C.R., 0.9751" Pin Dia. .030" Oversize; I was told when I did my build that the reliefs equal 10CC http://images14.fotki.com/v390/photo..._Piston-vi.jpg |
Originally Posted by dimora
(Post 11932112)
Here are the specs on the pistons I currently have in the block:
Cast; 2 -, 5/64 Groove, 1 - 3/16 Groove, 1.630 CD, Recessed Head .145 deep x 3.000 dia. w/2 valve reliefs - 7.9:1 C.R., 0.9751" Pin Dia. .030" Oversize; I was told when I did my build that the reliefs equal 10CC You would have had better results with a set if Flattops, and your stock heads. Your Intake and Carb are OK. The cam that you mentioned is OK, but I prefer a dual pattern cam. The Exhaust duration should be about 10 degrees longer than the Intake duration. You should have a zero deck piston with a ~24cc dish, and a cam with a seat-to-seat IVC of 66 to 68 degrees BTDC. I'll check Tim's website to see what he recommends. It should be close. |
Tim's pistons have a 30cc dish. Your cam should have a seat-to-seat IVC of ~62 degrees BTDC.
|
Originally Posted by danlee
(Post 11927722)
...My last Roller Retro-fit cam failed...
paul |
paul,
My cam didn't break, but the distributor drive gear wore, and my ignition timing was out-of-wack. Comp cams gave my 50% credit, since it was used for a couple of years. It turns out that my distributor gear was too hard, although the cam was supposed to work with all gears. I no longer have a distributor, but the cam sensor gear was made by Lunati to be compatible with my cam. |
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