understanding 4R100 Torque Converter Problems
 

Well to start with I have a problem when something goes bad I want to know what and why it broke. Now I have a E99 with torque converter issues that have caused the front seal in my trans to go out. Actually it was the seal leaking that got me to the point that I had to say to myself what caused it. Well I came up with the t.c. overheating. And thanks to some of the treads here on FTE I had found that Ford had put out a TSB on the E99 t.c. And the design they used on the E99 torque converter had real issues which were solved by late99. And in my research on 4r100 t.c. it has had issues since the E4OD. I found this write by Sonnax and Ed Lee which explains alot and in case anyone is interested here is the write up http://www.sonnax.com/system/pdfs/31...pdf?1289926058
Sorry for running off at the mouth :-blah but I just thought someone other than myself might be interested in this.

Well I see a few people have taken the time to read this but no input. As I have done my research on torque converters it does seem like Precision, RacerX and a couple other companies has found a combo of parts that work nicely but they will cost you dearly. Now I have also heard good things about Road Runner torque converters and at a fair price. But all they tell you about their converters is that they have a billet cover and triple disc. They don't tell you who's parts they use or what modds they do. Like as if you are going to go out and copy their design and build it in your garage. They are all nice converters that guys have used and never had a problem again once switching. But I just can't see paying that kind of money. The bigger companies add into their prices the cost of marketing their product. And I understand but I just don't have that kind of money to spend and if I did I still won't spend that kind of money for a NAME !!
So I have searched and talked to a few torque converter builders and most of them just rebuilt to factory specs, reusing the stock hub (stock hub isn't hardened) or their equipment was old and out of date and they used cheap parts. I'm kinda a freak when it comes to crap parts and out of date equipment. I myself have always been a big fan of Sonnax trans & t.c. parts. Then I was referred to Custom Built Torque Converters From Torque Converter Technology I called and asked a few questions and I liked the answers he gave me. He explained where the design flaws were and what he does to fix the problems. I asked if I could come see his shop and that I wanted to know what had failed in my t.c. He told me to bring my torque converter down and he would build me one as I watch. He also said he would explain what and why he is doing different modds. They do use Sonnax parts along with other parts too. So basically he is going to build me a torque converter to my specs with his modds. And I get to watch !! :-jammin And all for less than the cost of the big name companies torque converters and he stands behind his product too. And I am hoping he will let me take photos and do a write up on the build.
It just seems that us diesel guys know the in's and out's and the what and whys of the engines and transmissions but noone seems to care about how to make a torque converter work better. Sure you can pay a pretty penny and get a t.c. that will do the job. I just want to know the how and whys it works or breaks. Also I have found that the trans pump and valves in it can have alot to do with converter failure. I think I'll touch on that subject when I do a write up later.
Thanks for listening. Just my 2 cents :-blah

Thanks for the info and taking the time to write it up. Let us know how things work out. I also have an e99 and was debating on whether to get it rebuilt before it went out or wait for signs of failure. For now, I am tackling the cooling issue first since that will need to be done either way.

Thanks again.

Ed, how many miles on that truck? Man my torque convertor was really noisey. Like marbles inside. If you don't have that problem it was replaced. I had mine till the trans went out. 133K. If its stock with tons of miles, I wouldn't replace it without doing the trans. A cooler yes, even change the radiator to cool I'd do. But if its ran this long change it or just keep driving it.

Chet

Well Chet it does sound like marbles inside !!!:eek: But it been like that since I owned it. That was part of the E99 t.c.TSB But I was on a road trip to Florida last winter and a couple of times the t.c. shuttered and acted weird but cleaned up. It was at that time that the front seal started to leak. And the leak got worse until I parked it 6 mths ago. But at the time I parked it the trans still shifted correctly and no other real issues. Not even the t.c. acting up. Other than trans fuild everywhere. 205K
What I do believe has happened is the impeller hub bushing on the top side or both sides are bad. I am spitting in the wind with that.:-roll But after reading everything I could get my hands on about the 4R100 torque converter. That is my guess. That is why I can't wait til I have the cash to go and see what did go wrong inside the t.c.
Now I would love to at least freshen up the trans but I just don't have the $$. I haven't worked since last summer. And with boating season almost here I just need to get it back on the road so I can make some $$. But I do plan on replacing the torque converter, rebuild trans pump, Sonnax pump modds and if I can find a used 6.0 cooler. And I am going to spin the wheel and hope the trans will hang in there to at least the end of summer. Radiator I am hoping to do sometime this summer.

Sorry to hear of these problems, and good luck with the outcome, some interesting info there..

So how do you hear that over all the engine noise? When I put my head down under the truck it sounds like marbles too but I thought that was just the engine. I could use a broom handle on my ear to see if it is coming from the engine or transmission but how are you guys hearing it from the torque converter. Just wondering, thanks.

Do you have an e99? Most of these were e99 only I believe. They were noisey. I tried to get the dealer to replace it but they wouldn't. Then years later it was a recall, but they didn't send them out. You had to go in and be lucky, and they would replace it. Or if it went out on the road they would replace them. My trans went out first. 133k on that. I have family that replaced three trans in that amount of miles so its hit and miss. The motors weren't that noisey when new, just the convertors. As time goes on, its air in the system, injectors, etc., that make these motors so loud. And yes, you can tell a 7.3 from other Ford diesels, but have you heard a dodge. They're not that quite either when they age. Do the mods and it will quite right down, injectors included.:'(

Chet:-drink

i have a e99 to with poss trans issue. i can run truck up to speed 45-50mph no problems. then if i let up then acelerate to maintain 40-45mph around town it shakes bad. turning overdrive off it goes away ? going to read link thanks.

Do you have any codes? Sounds like the start of worn injectors, at that speed the TC is locked and more engine "vibrations" are felt through the drive train at low load situations.

i had all kinds of codes but havent checked lately. windsheild leaked . ill have to try to borrrow scanner from coworker again.

Thank you for the invitation to comment BadDogKuzz :cool:

Ed Lee's comments are excellent in the Sonnax article. One thing he didn't mention is there are 2 lock up strategies used in 4R100 transmissions, while all E4OD's used just one. Ed's article is about on - off converter clutch lock up which is used in gasoline engine 4R100's and all E4OD applications.

The leaking front O.E.M. seal is caused by too much flexibility in the seal material itself when hot, including all revised Ford seals over the years. The O.E.M. seal expands too much usually when towing or on a long trip. A factor that mislead Ford was the seal leaks would stop in many cases once the transmission had cooled. Owners would bring in their vehicles under warranty due to the leak, a tech would clean off the ATF residue and look for the source of the leak at idle on a lift. It usually didn't get hot enough to leak idling or the tech would just replace the front seal under warranty.

Ford focused on spun pump bushings instead of the seal, which were a secondary problem caused after enough fluid had leaked to thin out the ATF to the point it no longer lubed the bushing. Pump bushings would melt to the converter hub and spin out of the housing taking the seal along with them. Since this caused more expensive damage to cover under warranty, I can understand why Ford focused on the bushing area rather than the seal. Within Ford their was debate whether the seal itself blew out or the bushing spun first. Since the leaks would stop by themselves in many cases, the bushing area was focused on with the theory adding extra ribs in the pump casting would help hold both the bushing and seal tighter during high temperature use. It didn't stop the leaks...

We finally solved the front seal leak ourselves by having front seals made from different materials including several with different grades of pure viton, and testing them. None of the pure viton seals would seal in all conditions. It was a compound of viton and silicone material we came up with that stopped the front seal from leaking in all normal and high performance conditions the seal is exposed to use in. Today, we have all of our own seals and rings made to our specifications and use them in all our rebuilds. They also go into all our clutch kits that include an overhaul gasket, seal and ring kit.

Stock converters all have design limitations that contribute to their eventual failure. I think your converter problems began with overheat damage from the seal leak. I'm out of time for now, but will comment further on converters later. :-drink

Racer
Product research and development consultant to the automotive industry.
Certified specialist on automotive electronic control systems, diesel and gasoline engines, Custom transmission, Powertrain, Engine and Torque Converter Builder.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences with us on this topic Racer! BTW, I must have missed when you joined us on FTE, so let me welcome you!

Thanks
 

Thanks for the welcome nlemerise, I like your signature. :)

Our resume includes the privilege of working with some of America's best, including a NASA payload engineer and a gentleman who helped Henry Ford II win a stunning upset victory over an unbeaten and shocked Enzo Ferrari with a few specially modified FE series Ford engines that sweep the field at Le Mans France.

I'll try to contribute more tomorrow. Have a good evening all! :-wink


http://www.racerxusa.com/images/link...at le mans.jpg

Welcome to the Super Duty 7.3 section Bill. I don't think I've seen you around these parts before, and it's been a while since I've seen you around the OBS section. Welcome back to FTE. We would love to hear your opinion on anything you care to comment on.

For the rest of you who don't know, Bill is one of those service behind the sale kind of guys. Want to know something about how the 4R100 works or why you should do something different in a rebuild, he'll explain it to you.

Since he's not a sponsor, he can't say he sells transmissions, tranny parts, or anything that might be considered advertising........, but I can :-X03

https://racerxusa.com/

He's one of the E4OD/4R100 guru's. Don't be afraid to talk to or buy from him.