5.4L at idol nocks and shakes (sometimes)
 

I have a 2007 f150 I just put a used motor in with 90 000km motor runs great sounds great but the odd time at an idol the motor slows in rpm start to get a shake and nocks like a bitch ? Any ideas or has anyone ever had this happen to them ? It's got a cold air, throttle body spacer, flow master exaust.
Please help ASAP !!!!!!! Ps when I turn truck off then start it back up it's fine runs good ?

I have posted this in a few other places, thought you'd find this helpful:

Just Came across this in the February 2012 issue of Motor Magazine and thought that I should share this as this is a very common thread here on the FTE forum.

"Owners of some 1997-2005 Ford Trucks with the 5.4L two-valve engine may complain of an intermittent rough idle. One likely cause, says Ford, is noncommanded EGR flow. A stuck open EGR vlave is ultimately the culprit.

To make a definitive diagnosis, connect your scan tool, start the engine and allow it to reach normal operating temperature. Next, allow the idle to stabilize, scroll down to the DPFEGR PID on the scanner's display and write down the voltage. Now disconnect the vaccuum hose to the EGR valve and connect a vaccuum pump to its port. Pump the vacuum up until the EGR valve is wide open, then bleed off the vaccuum. Record the DPFEGR voltage again. Repeat this procedure several (about 8) more times.

If the DPFEGR voltage increases by .03 volt or more from the initial reading and the idle gets rough, the EGR valve is probably stuck open. Try tapping the casting with a wrench. If the voltage decreases and the idle now gets smooth, the valve is definitely sticking. Replace it with a revised design, Part No. XL3Z-9D475-CA.

Trucks that can benefit from the upgraded EGR vlave are 1997-99 F-250 light duty pickups, 1997-2004 f-150s, 1998-99 Lincoln Navigators, 1997-2005 E-series vans, 1998-2004 F-super duty pickups and 2000-05 Excursions."

-Tom Rosario (Feb. '12 Motor Magazine - "Service Slants")
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I find the super duties funny because I don't have an egr valve in my 2001.
My 5.4l runs great w/ headers back exhaust larger throttle body and a k&n.

A 2007 F150 5.4 doesn't have EGR. The VCT performs EGR function. OP, does the noise occur mostly when hot? It sounds to me like it has low oil pressure and the phasers are not returning to idle position. The oil pressure must be at least 25 PSI at hot idle for the phasers to operate properly. There was a problem with 2007 engines where the thrust bearing would wear out causing the crankshaft to walk and cause low oil pressure. When the noise is occuring does it go away when you rev the engine a little?

2007 F150 5.4L 3V Engine Knock (re-produceable)
 

Hi,

I have an '07 F150 5.4L 3V that has a horrible knock that I re-reproduce at will (and make go away).

1. Bring engine up to operating temp.
2. Light throttle tip-in bringing RPM's to (but no more than than) 1000rpm.
3. Release throttle (idles back down to ~500rpm).
4. KNOCK and VIOLENT VIBRATION occurs and rpm's drop to ~300rpm.:-X15
5. Apply throttle to bring rpm's ~ 1500rpm and release.
6. Knock and vibration gone. Engine purrs back at idle.:-X21

I can re-produce this 100% of the time. Now what I do when making parking lot maneuvers (<1200 rpm) is make sure I rev teh engine to at least 1500rpm and it won't invoke the horrible knock/vibration.

When this does occur the oil pressure gauge in the dash is rock steady. Although it could be not repsonding quikcly enough to show a short interval drop in oil pressure. Dealer measured pressure at operating temp to be 30-35 psi.

In addition to this, I also have a hesitation somewhere around 2nd gear. Not much, but noticable.

Cam phasor? VCT? Fuel sending unit module?

I would thought maybe EGR but it's my understadning these engines don't have one.

Id replace the spark plugs.

I have the same exact trouble as NFLDER. Mine is an 08, pisses me off , i only have 64000kms on my truck. I also have a friend with a 09 with the same problem. ps-Nflder, are you from Newfoundland? If so where?

rslade76:
Affirmative on Newfoundland.
Living in St.John's at the moment. Orginally from Carbonear.

I have a 2004 F150 (late model) with 150K on it. Just bought it. I am experiencing the exact same issue and I too can reproduce it. I believe that "70f100longbed" is correct on this... low oil pressure at idle. This is what I have done so far:

1.) Replaced the driver's VCT because I was getting code P0022. This did not correct the issue.
2.) Removed the oil pressure sending switch and put in a oil pressure gauge with a 6 foot line to it and routed it to the inside of the cab through the firewall.
3.) Monitored oil pressure at all temperatures.
4.) Results are as follows...
a.) 75psi when starting the engine on a cool morning ... idles as designed.
b.) 60-65 psi when on driving on the highway (RPM about 2100) with the engine up to operating temperature.
c.) 50 psi when driving on highway and the RPM drops down between 1000-1500.
d.) 25 psi and less when I get off the highway and come to a stop sign with the engine at operating temperature .... THIS IS WHEN I GET THE ROUGH IDLE.
5.) If I understand the design of this motor correctly, the timing is in the most advanced state when at idle and the VCT accomplishes this if working correctly; however, since the oil presuure MUST BE a steady (strong) 25 psi or more and I am seeing a very weak 25psi (or less) the VCT is not able to change the retarded cam position from the 2000+ RPM ... so I get the code P0022.
6.) Hence, Bad timing (too retarded) and rough idle at RPMs lower than 1000 ... which is IDLE.

Now, someone please correct me if I am wrong. If I am correct ... than I have a few question.

1.) What should the oil pressure be at 500-750 RPM on a 5.4L motor that is within spec tolerances on oil pump, crank bearings, & connecting rod bearing?
2.) Are these oil pumps know to loose the ability to maintain designed oil pressure on high mileage motors?
3.) Would I expect to see the crank bearings and/or connecting rod bearings approaching "out of tolerance" spec with the symptoms above?
4.) Or would it be the combination of bearings and oil pump causing my low oil pressure at idle?
5.) Lastly, will I be able to replace the oil pump from the underneath after pulling the oil pan?

Thanks,

Hey Nflder, did you get your truck fixed?
 

In response to Nflder's 2nd last post, I had my truck for a 1 hour drive and all the exact symptoms have occured exactly as he described. It happened almost everytime I would go forward or reverse , just going ahead or coming to a stop. Just wondering if anyone has the fix for this. I have no codes showing and would hate to spend alot of money when nobody can tell me what's wrong. I spoke to a local mechanic and said it's probably the cam sensor under the power sterring res because that's where the sound seemed to be coming from! ? ps- is cam sensor the vct sensor?

Same Problem here..... NO Codes...

What recently happened to my truck... P0430 Code - Bank 2 Cat - sure enough Cat was clogged and the mechanic did the following:

1. Replaced CAT
2. Replaced FPM (the housing was cracked and only days away from failing)
3. Reflashed the PCM with the "Latest" version from Ford.

So after that the power was back and the truck ran pretty good.. but then the Low-ilde BS started as you stated....

I finally got a chance to clean the Throttlebody the other day... While the problem has gotten better, meaning it has not happened as frequently... it is Still happening... my Truck has 84,000 on it with the Original Plugs... The Fuel filter is changed every 10,000 miles.

Before I start going crazy as to how to fix this... my next step is to do the spark plugs.. of course when I get the chance to do so...

The oil pressure at hot idle must be a minimum of 25psi for the VCT to work properly but I would say anything below 30 is suspect. The oil pan and timing cover has to come off as well as both timing chains to replace the oil pump. Its possible the timing chain tensioner seals have blown out and are bleeding off pressure. You could try changing the oil using 5w30 and motorcraft filter. I would pull the oil pan and closely inspect the thrust bearings for wear. Also look for metal particles in the pan, a little is ok but if it looks like someone sprinkled glitter all over then there is a problem.

Rough idle - finally threw a P0345 Code
 

So how funny is that.... I went to Home cheapo to get a few things.. That was a 10 mile trip which took about 15 minutes... So when I got home and pulled into the parking lot, the truck started to rough idle and guess what??? It finally threw a code!! P0345 and P0349 was pending.

So it looks like something is up with my Cam positioners!?!

So is there a possiblilty of low oil pressure? Or is it more likely that I jumped a tooth and the engine needs to be retimed?

We have a 2004 late model f150 and just went through the same issue, shake at low idle, knocking and same p codes, ours also had the 22 code which i Think is low oil preasure and it seemed like the transmission was about to go. Mind you this didn't happen all at once, the condition had been deteriorating over time. We change the oil and filter ever 6k miles. Before we took it to the shop, i read horror stories of thes symptoms and folks replacing cam sensors, VCR, timing chains...etc, and thousands of dollars later symptoms remained. Since I know the p codes pointed to cam sensors, and I know many times that didn't resolve, I wanted to have them go right for the timing chain looking for a skipped tooth. My husband went against my recommendation and took it to his ford Truck expert mechanic. A week later and 1800 dollars the mechanic called and said their is sludge all over the engine, the truck barely runs, not to waste any more money to get a new engine...

So my husband told me this news, i did not believe this diagnosis. So i did a lot of research and came to the conclusion that we needed to chane the oil to 15-40 diesel. I told my husband to call his expert mechanic and tell him to humor you and put in that oil.

My husband was laughing, thinking how rediculous this idea was. But since the alternative was to get it towed for a second opinion or buy a new engine and tranny, he went with it.

Well the next day the mechanic calls and says he can't believe it but the 15-40 oil resolved all the issues. Knocking, stalling at idle, rough idle, transmission symptoms, running like a diesel oh and the ticking... GONE.

I found at least 10 other people who have resolved these issues with the 15-40.

I wish someone had posted this resolution with more clarity so that we could have done this first and saved 1800$ and a lot of stress.

Good luck

At this time I am willing to take the $50 gamble and do a filter swap and try some 15W40 oil. If this indeed fixes the issue then great... At this point the low/rough idle happens everytime I drive the truck once it reaches operating temperature.

However, after the hours and hours I spent searching and reading posts in the 04-08 F-150 and the 4.6/5.4L Modular engine sections of this forum for the P0345/P0349 codes.. I honestly believe I have a Cam Phazer that went south... weak spring... but heck I am willing to take a $50 gamble and TRY the oil....

Can't wait to hear if this resolves! Good luck and post the results.

Funny we had same p codes too. I will post links to the other forums that are discussing this interesting resolution. To think how much money on wasted engines and unnecessary repairs based on fords recommendations for oil, which seems to be be based more on industry standards than on the needs of this particular engine. That's just my uneducated (in auto mechanics) conspiracy theory.

Mine did the same thing when i had a leak in my exhaust manifold. Got any air leak or exhaust leaks going on?.

I had the same problem with my 2004 - violent shaking at times. I also developed a rattle upon engine start so I pulled the valve covers and timing cover to find a broken (7 pieces) stationary chain guide and a broken cam phaser (three dowel pins missing). This resulted in the driver side cam not going back to fully advanced position (via the spring). Oil pressure via the VCT solenoid causes the cams to retard. I replaced both cam phasers, both chains and all guides. Problem is gone and it runs quieter than ever.

How many miles on that engine of yours?

89,000 miles

Was your Engine very gunky? Like this?

http://ontimetooldesign.com/F150/DirtyEngine.jpg

That is Nasty! How many miles on that Engine?

No - mine wasn't nearly that bad but there was a little sludge. I have been using the Motorcraft 5W-20nk. After replacing the phasers and timing chains I put in a high detergent 15W-30 and thinned it a bit with some Kreen from Kona labs to loosen and remove the gunk/sludge over a 1000 miles or so. Then I will switch to a full synthetic 5W-20.

I also installed the cam phaser lockouts from Livernois Motorsports so as to eliminate the noise and reduce the potential for future failure. Now I have a bad plug I think as it shudders under load at low rpms. Upon removing the coils I found the front two wells on the passenger side had some coolant in them from when I disconnected one of the coolant lines during the timing work. I plan on replacing all the plugs while I am it. This will be the second time. I used nickel antiseize during the first change and they came out easy this time (after 45000 miles). Now I don't know what plugs to put back in?

What plugs did you put in last time? I just replaced my plugs... 4 broke, but the Lisle tool kicks a$$ :-jammin Personally I would stay with the Motorcraft SP515. My Boss GAVE me a set of 8 Champion 7989's of which he tried and his truck ran like crap.... they are going to sit on the shelf! :p

I put in the Motorcraft PZT1Fs - SP-462 maybe? I was able to take them right out w/o any seafoam or de-carbonizing process. I have 8 of the single platinum SP-507s that went on sale just after I changed them last time - but I might go with the SP-515 double platinums this time.

When I first got my truck I change all plug , all broke, it took 16 hours. I put in champion. Still ran like crap. Here #5 plug was faulty. I called champion rep and he had 8 new ones mailed out ASAP that were checked out by one of their engineers before they were mailed out. This corrected the problem. This rep also mentioned that champion was working with Ford to become a supplier for the 5.4, 4.6 breakage problem. Time will tell. Or the rep was dreaming. In any case I will be using the champion until I prove them out over time.

So I replaced all plugs with the sp-515s and cleaned the COPs again. Truck runs like a champ now - no shuddering, no hesitation and plenty of power.

So now that the engine is running great - the drivers side rear window decided to break during my test drive! It does not seem to be attached to the regulator anymore and just slides down on its own . . . I swear this truck is now cursed . . . . . . .:-banghead

Demon Possessed these Ford F150s.....

Apparently window regulators are also a common issue on these trucks as I am finding out!

My Passenger side window is slow no matter how many times I clean the switch / lube the tracks - it is what it is... Still works so screw it :D

Ya know we could always just buy a new vehicle every 2 years like all the stupid people who like to throw away their money - then we wouldn't have these problems.. }> Haha :-drink

I agree with you completely! I've owned this truck for 8 years now and my total maintenance bill, excluding wear and tear items like tires and breaks, is less than $1500. That works out to be around $40 per month over the last three years since my warranty ran out. Still cheaper than a new truck payment . . . . .

Hey there everyone new to the forum, and ive been reading all the threads and my brother-in-laws truck does the exact thing his is a 07 4 door 4x4 5.4l and my buddy is a certified ford tech and he was looking at it and looked it up at his job and he said it was the timing tensioners that is making it do this. havent replaced it yet because ford charges over $1000 dollars to do the job. Just letting evryone know what i have been told by a ford tech.

I'm having a similar issue to op
so far I've replaced the air and fuel filters, changed the oil, cleaned the MAF and Throttle body all to no avail

By a Chevy!

No, that is what inadequate maintenance does......................

rough idle, rubbing sound.
 

I have the same problem as most here with the noise and rough idle to the point of stall out on my 5.4L. i have done phaser's vct solonoids twice and doing my tensioners for the second time right now. I got a screem coming from the timing cover and removed it yet another time for an inspection. I found the trigger wheel rubbing the timing cover, after a thorough inspection i found that the crank end play is over 1/8 of an inch.... thrust bearing is totaly burned up. I have been told that this engine is most possibly the worst engine ever designed by ford. Has anyone else run into a worn out thrust bearing at 137k.