Intake Valve deposit problems with DI engines(?)
 

Hi guys:
I have been thinking that direct injection on the EcoBoost and other engines from all manufacturers was the best thing since sliced bread (aside from the issues of higher fuel pump pressure, etc.).

However, I have been poking around the Internet and there is apparently a generic problem with direct injection engines where the intake valves get gummed up with PCV (crankcase fumes) and EGR gunk. Traditional port-injection engines have gas and it's additives moving over the intake valves and keeping them clean (or mostly clean), but with DI engines, this doesn't happen.

It looks like Audi and VW have been having the most serious problems. If you google "direct injection engine intake valve deposits" you will definitely find a whole bunch of links on the problem. And some really ugly photos of intake valves...

Toyota, I think, has a partial solution in that they do use a separate injector in the intake port (as well as the one in the combustion chamber) that does some of the work and intake valve cleaning.

Just pondering whether this is going to be any kind of issue with the EB motors. I'm guessing that as an engine ages and has more blowby, the PCV valve deposits will get somewhat more problematic.

Just thinking (or worrying) in advance,
George

Ford engineer told me in one of the chat sessions to use a good quality gas (top tier) and to work the engine hard periodically. It's like the diesels, if you baby them you will have problems with clogged EGR's etc, work it hard and I haven't had any problems with my 6.0 in over 6 years

I dunno. The intake valves never see the gas, so I don't think fuel quality makes much difference, and I'm not sure that diesel experience translates exactly to gas engine intake valve issues.

Here's a gruesome photo of a VW/Audi engine as well as a discussion of their deposit problems:

VWVortex.com - Direct injection causes intake valve buildup?

As I said, I was totally thrilled about the coming of DI until I started reading about this kind of stuff. I sure hope Ford has it worked out better than VW/Audi. It does sound like one of the main issues is having an effective oil separator in the PCV valve plumbing.

Thanks,
George

Forget where I read it, but I saw something that said the EB doesn't have an EGR or PCV, supposedly they did this to avoid the deposit issue.

I did a search on that and can't find anything but mentions in other forums about a catch-can for the PCV. There is a lot about the "next generation" EB having cooled EGR. So I'd guess both are there.

EGR is also introduced using cam overlap, so that may or may not be in use with these engines.

The VW/Audi valves look pretty bad. The SHO valves look a little better, but still far from perfect.

Search led to this:

Want to buy Ecoboost, but... : Ford Flex Forum

Note some talk about EGR filters....

Which led to this:

BGFuelTest.com 44,043 miles

And the future:

Ford Working On More Powerful, More Efficient EcoBoost Technology

Not the bugs I expected to see that need to be worked out....but I'd guess they will figure it out, after a couple million "early adaptors" get hosed....or a couple million vehicles get recalled.

Thanks, 85, for your research. This is making me less and less anxious to get into ANY kind of direct injected vehicle any time soon. I can only hope that this does not end up being a major nightmare for Ford or any other manufacturer as companies move toward adopting DI. I've been driving for 42 years and have had that sick feeling in the pit of my stomach many times, with many cars. I would sure hate to have it buying a new Ford EcoBoost of any kind. (I also don't really trust CVT's, for instance.)

Thanks,
George

Interesting info. I wonder though - seems that GM has been running the DI engines somewhat longer than Ford. Heard and problems with them?

Sounds like maybe they'll need regular flushing with a deposit cleaner.

Another search finds GDI around since 1925, with the latest push starting in 1996 as by then the electronics worked better. Wiki, so beware, who has time to check?

Gasoline direct injection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

More of the same, with a reference to GM using the valve overlap for EGR instead of a regular EGR.

Direct Injection huge drawback - AnandTech Forums

My WAG theory is the EGR cooks the PCV fumes in the intake and on the back of the valves. Note in previous links the Ford stuff looked better than the others.

Stay tuned I guess.:-huh

Thanks for the additional info, 85....your second link also brought to light the big fuel pump problems that DI BMW's have when fuel with alcohol in it is used. And they keep talking about going to 15% ethanol in the US. There are all kinds of factors like this that make the only valid testing of vehicles being long time periods in the hands of consumers.

This all makes me not want to be an early adopter of new technology like DI, CVT, and stuff like that.

For the record, I did have an '86 Turbo Lancer back in 1988-93 or so and it was a pretty cool car except that the head gaskets blew up at 69k miles and I took *very* good advantage of the 7/70 warranty to get a new turbo and pretty much a whole engine rebuild because of the oil/antifreeze mix. I prefer NA cars still...and have also had stuff like 426 Chrysler Hemi cars, Corvettes, etc. So I do like my big V8's but probably will not buy any more V8 vehicles after my '02 E150 (with 4.6) goes away--but that will be a while.

George

I just sold my 2007 Mazdaspeed 6, has the DI 2.3 turbo engine init and had some EGR issues, I usedit as my DD mainly back roads to and from work. Right around 45k miles I started have the check engine light pop up. Read the code and it was insufficient EGR flow. Did some research and found that this was common on these cars, and the fix was seafoam. Been using that stuff for the past few years in almost anything with an engine. It great and once you get some miles on the engine I would do a treatment on the intake before every other oil change depending on your internals. I did that and then went and ran the car pretty aggressively and took care of the issue until the next time, at which point I did it again. Take it for what its worth but thats what the mazda crowd is doing.

I'm the OP for this thread. I was talking to my son (U of M engineering grad) and one of his friends has been working for Toyota R&D for a number of years--doing serious stuff like getting the crankshaft balance to work for the V10 in the new Lexus supercar. And the friend also has a full cage VW rally car, etc.

In any case, the friend's statement is that DI is the "worst idea" in engine development for years, meaning he foresees big problems down the road. Based on someone on the "insde" like this, I'm going to continue being skeptical until there are a lot of DI engines out there with over 100k miles on them of the kind I'd consider buying. My gut feeling is that no mfr has really solved the long term issues as yet. I hope I'm wrong.

George

I don't put much store in a friend of friend says stuff. If DI is the "worse idea" then I don't think Ford would be planning on putting ecoboost engines in most of their fleet. They obviously were involved with the Mazda DI engine and based the ecoboost off of it. They knew what problems the Mazda and others were having. The "hero" ecoboost engine still made rated power after all it went through even with some deposits on it. The trick is to actually WORK your truck, don't just use it as a daily driver and use a top tier gas not that cheap junk

When the EPA dictated higher fuel economy and consumers dictated more power, DI and turbochargers are what is available as the answer. Diesels have EGR and other problems from the soot. GTDI engines have deposit issues. Until someone comes up with a better way to generate hp at high efficiency this is what we get.

Well put, plus thats what warranties are for right?

Having seen the torn down torture test EB engine at the Detroit Auto Show, I agree that running the thing hard likely prevented much deposit formation. That said, your statement that top tier gas will make a difference is not valid; the gas never sees the back side of the intake valve. And your statement "don't just use it as a daily driver" makes me wonder what will happen with the vast majority of people that will buy an EB vehicle for use as a daily driver.

I hope I am wrong in any skepticism that I have about DI, but I have made a conscious decision not to be an "early adopter" of this technology...again, we shall see what happens when a whole bunch of different DI engines have 100k or more miles on them.

Again, I am hoping for nothing less that tremendous success for the EB and all of Ford's vehicles.

George

I had an '08 Mazdaspeed3 that I used as a daily driver and I never did anything to that car until I traded it in at 54k miles on a new '11 Platinum EB. It drove just as strong the last day I drove it as the first. I never seafoamed it, replaced spark plugs, NOTHING but drive the heck out of it. I did use mostly premium Shell for gas and Pennzoil Platinum / Ultra for oil on 4500 mile oil change intervals with Mazda filters. 2 air filters rounds out his maintenance program. Surely Ford monitored this engine and learned.

Besides, if decarboning is needed, I'm sure Motorcraft will develop some sort of sea foam product that blow all that stuff out.

VWAG may be having a heck of a time with their engines, but I haven't heard much from the BMW camp about carbon deposits - their engines just chew up the high pressure fuel pumps with alarming regularity. My younger brother had a 335i that virtually liquidated his driving license with points before he had to get a car that was less of a party. That car never gave up; his license did! 55k on it.
We'll see how this plays out, I have 2 Ecoboost engines here; an FX4 and a Platinum, so you know I'm in!
Cheers!

I'll drink to that!

:-drink :-X22 :-drink

Ford engineer in a chat said to use high grade gas and work it hard to prevent the problem. Who knows more, your or him?:-huh

Since the backs of the intake valves in a DI engine never see the gas, the gas quality does not matter for the problem I am discussing, so that fact in itself makes me skeptical of his claim unless you or he can specifically say what the gas will do in terms of deposits on the backs of the intake valves. (Top tier fuels would help keep injectors, plugs, and combustion chambers/piston tops clean and I use them whenever I can.) I would agree that working the engine hard might help by moving more air past the intake valves and keeping them a bit cooler, maybe. But enough beating this dead horse for now. Neither you, the Ford engineer, nor I know what the future of DI engines is going to bring us in terms of problems after 100-200k miles. I'm also thinking that when engines get older and have more blowby, the PCV fumes are going to have more oil vapor in them. And therefore more gunk potential...

Let's talk in 5-10 years, OK? I keep saying that I do NOT want Ford to have any problems at all with the EB engine or any of their other products, but we both know that there have been some serious problems that were not caught in Ford's design and testing phase (case in point--the blown out plugs in mod motors which took Ford *only* 13 years to fix by adding a few more spark plug threads--also the "stuck plugs" in the 3 valve engines which came apart in some cases). Likewise 5R55 trans problems and wheel bearing and differential problems in Explorers (which scared me away from buying one a number of years ago).

I am a major Ford fan, have owned a bunch of Ford cars and trucks since 1978, and intend no offense to any other Ford lover or EB buyer. I am just "thinking out loud" about this problem....

George

I understand your concern George..
 

but a lot of the carboned up intake valves have to do with the PCV system on the engine. I'm willing to bet that the Audi/ VWAG cars have some sort of crazily plumbed oil separator as a pcv system. My BMW 330ci has one and it is ridiculous. What a POS.

I never really messed with the PCV system on my Mazdaspeed 3 but it did not seem to gum up his intakes. I traded him in at 54k miles (I realize that is not many miles) and he ran like a top - still quite the player, and if there was some sort of carbonizing going on you'd think by then it'd start to mess with the performance of the car. Didn't happen. The MS3 did get hammered regularly and that may have helped, but mostly I think it was the no mods - top tier gas - quality synthetic oil with factory filters that had a major hand in it.

What I did worry about was the high pressure fuel pump: it never failed me, but BMW dealers have a literal lazy susan in the parts room dishing those out to the shop for their turbo engines. My brother's 335i took a pair of those in 55k miles- not a good track record at all; he didn't have a clogged up intake tract either - that car nearly destroyed his driving license with points before he got rid of it.

I guess what I am trying to say is we'll just have to see how all this plays out; I won't be modding mine so the warranty will be in full force.

Lets hope Ford comes through for me!!
Cheers

Here, Here, lets hope they come through for all of us, no matter what engine or model we have!