transmission big leak ....
 

ford 1990 f-250 7.3l lariat 2wdr auto, big big leak between at the base of the bell housing !!! got stuck on the road and tow at home. A few Q

how good are those transmission, any upgrade to make them better?
at 200 000 miles is it time for replacement or rebuilt? It was working find up to now.
I don't use the truck very hard, but will do a big trip soon with camper slide on.
How hard it is to drop those unit, and if the big leak is just a seal, can i replace it my self? where can i get the part?
how many hours in a shop I am looking for? any body with similar experience, Any info will be a big help. Thanks

200 000 miles is a lot for that type and year of transmission if you can verify that its a factory build. Its beat the odds and although some make it longer, most do not.

Most likely a blown front main seal and this is a very common problem that often comes with overheating. Were you using it a little harder when it happened? Maybe trying to back a trailer up an incline? Was it doing anything abnormal?

There is a better aftermarket seal that is more heat resistant then the factory silicone seal (has blue on the actual sealing surface instead of being completely grey). It may in fact still seal back up after it cools but it won't hold for long even if it does. If you have ever replaced a pinion seal on a differential, then you can replace the seal on the transmission. They are pressed in the same way. Just be careful not to scratch the aluminum bore.

I don't have a lift or proper transmission jack, and it takes me a good 6 hours to drop my E4OD, however I drop it with the transfer case on. About as long to put it back in. Thankfully, I haven't done that in a long time.

Yes, it can be upgraded. How far you want to upgrade really depends on how much you want to spend because it may cost as much as an engine rebuild if you want completely bullet proof. I rebuilt mine myself and regretted a few mistakes but would do it again if I had to.

For buying a replacement, your options are wide, but from my understanding, BTS makes one of the strongest ones out there. Ford dealers also offer reasonable prices and warranty that most smaller shops cannot compete with. The ford factory rebuilt transmissions have lots of internal upgrades that make them very reliable in a stock application. For heavy towing or turbocharging however, they are not quite enough.

yeah. i vote front pump seal too.
hey not bad! iv never had a tranny seal last 200k before.front or rear.
replace 'em both while your at it.the rear is easy to do anytime sure,but with 200k it cant last much longer i wouldn't think lol.changing it now sure beats another break down beside the road and lost of trans fluid.
if your not using the truck real hard,just putting in a shift kit and cooler is a good place to start.the shift kit reduces clutch slippage which= wear,and heat.and the cooler helps keep things cool.
changing the fluid and filter every 50k is a good idea as well if working her regularly but not overdoing it.

ps.yeah with making good camping runs,and just a slide on.i wouldn't worry about rebuilding it if its working good.there are LOADS of upgrades for serious haulers who hook on to 15k+ plus all the time.for us who may haul a couple tons once in awhile,id just do the upgrades noted above.(use heavy duty mode to firm up the shifts.dont go any higher,or it will pound you lol)

It is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that a stock E4OD installed in 1991 would make it 200,000 miles without at least one rebuild, no matter if it had a cooler on it or not. There were design flaws back then that could only be fixed with hard part upgrades.

Yep, pump to converter seal got old and hard.

An auxiliary trans cooler does wonders for helping a trans last longer.

The forward piston's inner seal should have also hardened and worn a deep groove in it by 100,000 miles or soon after, not to mention the center support and the forward clutch metallic sealing rings would have serious leakage issues and deep grooves as well.

The newer center support bearing design was an upgrade needed from day one.

transmission upgrade!
 

thanks for the info , because of those e40d problem, is it possible to put other serie of transmission ! is it possible!

I'm glad you asked!
 

I'm glad you asked!

You might want to reply with the rear end ratio and tire size you have on the truck now so I can answer any question you have in the reply.

The C6 would be a perfect swap for the ID Diesel E4OD.
It bolts right in to the engine and the cross member can easily be made to fit, and it still uses the old style speedometer gear and cable.

The E4OD was designed from the C6 using most of the C6 parts and design.
There are a lot of parts that will swap into the C6 from the E4OD so some of the E4OD upgrade parts will fit into the C6.

And there are three things that effect the over all Final Drive Ratio.
1: The transmission's high gear ratio.
2: The rear end ratio.
3: The tire diameter.
As you go down the list, the items get easier, and cheaper to change.

There are a few things that need to be changed out to get the C6 to work/fit.
1: Pulling the electrical F.I.P.L and put in the variable vacuum control "switch?" and the related hoses.
2: Changing the drive shaft length to fit the shorter C6 or the longer C6/Gear Vendor combo.
3: Wire in the neutral safety switch plug with the wires that are already there to fit the C6.
4: If you want to, the gear indicator under the speedometer, but it's cosmetic and not needed.

You will loose the high (overdrive) gear the E4OD has as the C6 is a three speed and has no 4th overdriven gear, but depending on the rear end ratio in your truck, you could swap the rear end gear for a taller set, or if you have taller tires that can compensate as well.

There is also the Gear Vendor Overdrive that will make the C6 a 6 speed with a 2 speed reverse!

The E4OD has an overdrive ratio of .72
The gear Vendor has a ratio of .78:1

I have the 3.55 rear end gears and with the stock overdrive it gives me an overall final drive ratio of 2.56.
If I swap in a C6 and get the 3.08:1 rear gears I will be going from a 2.56 to a 3.08 so a little worse fuel mileage but a much more reliable transmission.
These are the available ratios times the OD ratio to give the final drive ratio
3.08 X .72 = 2.21
3.55 X .72 = 2.56
3.73 X .72 = 2.68
4.10 X .72 = 2.95
4.56 X .72 = 3.28

So if you now have a 4.56 rear end you can swap in a C6 and a set of 3.55 gears and not lose much, but if you put in the 3.08 gears you will be ahead of the E4OD.

The Gear Vendor will get you.
3.08 X .78 = 2.40
3.55 X .78 = 2.76
3.73 X .78 = 2.91
4.10 X .78 = 3.20
4.56 X .78 = 3.55

Taller tires can have a huge effect on the ratio as well.
A truck with 4.56 gears stock with 29 inch tall tires acts, or feels like a 4.00 rear end when you swap in 33 inch tires, and is just like having 3.00 rear end with 44 inch tires.

That is why those with taller tires need bigger gears, so you can adjust the FDR with taller tires.

Alot of useful info but two things I have to disagree with. Not as important for some is the indicator for gear selection. Many states require this for inspection and even if it works but doesn't line up correctly, they will fail you.

Most importantly is the reversing part you spoke of. Absolutely NOT true for GearVendors unit. These units, also known as Laycock OD's, absolutely can not be used in reverse. The unit will be "fighting" itself and totally wipe out the sliding cone clutch or worse. You maybe confused with the US Gear unit that's offered.
Also with the unit in theory you have a six speed, but only if your generating enough pump pressure which is driven off the input shaft of the unit. It's recommended 40+mph to insure the pump is capable of generating the 400psi required to hold the sliding clutch engaged on the planetary drum. So in reality you have 1st gear, 2nd gear, 2nd overdrive, 3rd, and 3rd overdrive. In most cases I find myself at 50mph hitting the switch and going into OD bringing the rpm down to about 1800 from 2400.

I can personally say with the c-6 I built up and the recent addition of the Gearvendors/ Laycock unit I rebuilt, I'm enjoying the truck all over again. I can now do 65mph at about 2400rpm where before i'd be over 3000rpm. And I still have my 4.56 r&p for the heavy load hard starts. Between the IDI and C-6 I appreciate the simplicity and copious amount of parts available almost anywhere. o.k. I'm done.

You can get it to line up, but the O around the D would imply overdrive, and that would bug me.
I thought I read somewhere that you could use the GV in reverse, but it might have been the other unit you mentioned.

I'll look into it.:-huh

Either way, I prefer the C6 over the E4OD any day.
:-dancing1

Let's see, there are the....
1: Gear Vendor®
2: Dual Range®
3: Saturn overdrive®
4: RubiCrawler®

Those are all that I can find right now, but there was one that I remember that would start in od if you left it in od and came to a stop, or put it into reverse.

Drive with your foot down, flip the switch and that when you lift your foot for a split second, it would shift.

OH! would you happen to have any pictures of that GV OD you rebuilt while it was torn apart?

I would love to see it on the inside.

I have nothing personal against the C6, but after swapping one out with a built up E4OD, I'd never go back. The problem with a C6 and gear vendors, is there is a practical limit to how low you can get the RPMs because the lower they are, the more slip the torque converter lets through.

There is no way to put a locking torque converter in a C6, so no matter how low your final gearing is in theory, it won't match an E4OD.

Search the one I mentioned earlier, US Gear. They claim you can use it in reverse.
The only pics I took were of the clutch and the case. Posted are pics of mine during the rebuild and the last pic will be an exploded view of a J type which is similar to the P type. The main thing rebuilding these is cleanliness and test and adjust your pressures to spec 21psi residual 400psi activated. Insuffecient pressure will cause clutch slippage or no engagement.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2739/...5bfd31e9b5.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2565/...9efae97185.jpg

http://www.buckeyetriumphs.org/techn...D1/Theory9.jpg

parts to rebuild E4OD
 

If you want to rebuild your E4OD check out these parts from Oregon Performance Transmission.
http://www.oregonperformancetransmis...gory_Code=E4OD
http://www.oregonperformancetransmis...gory_Code=E4OD
http://www.oregonperformancetransmis...gory_Code=E4OD
also check your torque converter for signs of overheating. I replaced mine with this one, supplied by the transmission shop.
http://www.transtar1.com/technicalHT...2&ppp=35&ppn=2
I pulled the transmission myself, took it to the shop and they gave it a thorough check up and installed the parts for $250.00. The torque converter was an additional $475.00? if my memory serves me correctly.

I just did a few searches on the listed overdrives.

Looks like the Dual Range is a modified US Gear unit. Dual Range

Saturn Overdrive looks like it was bought out by Advance Adapters and is out of production. Part may or may not be available. Overdrive
And I did not see where they would be of any use on an F series since I saw no applications for the transfer case or transmissions we have.

Ranger Gear Splitter is another overdrive, but looks like only the four speed transmission works with it, and has to be moved back. Ranger Torque Splitter (V-8 Conversions)

Rubicrawler looks like a rock crawler deep reduction unit only. RubiCrawler 2.72:1 crawler box for the Jeep 42RLE transmission | Engine & Transmission Conversion Adapters - Advance Adapters

So for bolt on overdrives, looks like US Gear and Gear Vendors are about it at this time.

Custom overdrive, A Spicer (Brownie box) with a second shifter could give you under and overdrive in the same box, but custom everything and a rather steep learning curve to be able to split gears while driving.

As far as the torque converter slipping, they slip very little at steady freeway speeds, and if, just for example, the TQ slips 10%, if you gear the rear end 20% higher it can compensate.

Most people do not realize that tire height and rear end gearing can effect the final drive ratio so much that it can make the fact that someone has an overdrive trans a non-issue, or more than compensate for that minor bit of slippage in the TQ of a C6.

I have never had my GV apart, so I have no idea whats inside of it but it has to be in direct in reverse.

That does not look like a GearVendor.
They do not have an attachment that bolts to the side that I can see.

If I knew how to post a picture of the GV unit, I would.

Also, any one here ever seen, or have a Hone Overdrive, or a Hone-O-Drive?

What your refering to "bolt on the side" isn't the side. It's the bottom. GV offers a deep sump that also can be bolted to the bottom, which is what you may have seen.
Also the exploded diagram is of a J type. GV and myself use a P type. Both units are very similar and as noted in my previous post there are some small differences.
In actuality GV bought the rights from Laycock which is the company that started these units. Trust me when I say the photo's are the same as a GV unit, after all where do you think I got the rebuild parts from? GV.

http://www.gearvendors.com/shop_images/C-6_Flat.jpg

In the exploded diagram it looks like there are 2 round cases that bolt together, but now that I look closer, it seems as if there are 2 views of the same part.

So, you are saying that the Hone 0 Drive, or Hone Overdrive, was sold to Gear Vendor and the Gear Vendor's current product is the redesigned result of that design?
I know the Hone was mechanically engaged with a shifter and the Gear Vendor is hydraulically engaged by an electric switch.

I did like the two pictures here.
They were clear and close up.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2739/...5bfd31e9b5.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2565/...9efae97185.jpg

But would love to see more of the internals just as clear and close up.

That exploded picture was not too clear and the parts ID list was missing.

Sorry to nag, but I saw an original brochure a couple decades ago and it said the Cougar had the option of having a 2 speed rear end and have seen nothing about it until a couple days ago when someone ID'd it as the Hone Overdrive bolted to either the 8 or 9 inch rear end.



Is there an on line repair, or rebuild manual I can access?

I just need to see the guts of the thing!!!!

I guess we could use one of the overdrive units they used to put in the model T's it just went on the driveshaft. I forget who built it.

Here is is along with a stock case trans with syncro internals.

The trans goes for $4000!
The OD is so much $$,$$$,$$$ THEY SAY TO CALL FOR THE PRICE!!!!!

Model A and Auto Accessories

ARCHANGEL:

I didn't want to get into a history report write up but I'll briefly explain.
A company called GKN/Laycock overdrive makes overdrive unit in Europe for MANY manufacturers such as Volvo.
The way Gear Vendors got started was by making the adapter to put this unit already being produced behind any transmission they want. This is why older units said Laycock P TYPE and the adapter said "GV".
I wouldn't recommend anyone to go ripping into one of these units unless you have experience with rebuilding hydraulic operated units such as transmissions and such. These units are loaded with valves inside of valves and tolerences that must be checked for reassembly. Also the unit needs to be tested for the pressures through the test port. At certain RPM it must pump 20 some psi and when activated jump up to about 400 psi. Even the activation solinoid has valves inside of it. There are many o-rings also and some are close to size of each other but cannot be mixed up.
If you can't comprehend the exploded view of the J TYPE then I wouldn't recommend you taking one of these units apart.
Your next topic was the other OD unit that bolts to the rear axle pinion giving you a 2 speed rear. I never made mention of the unit but I have seen them and are not applicable in the Ford diesel truck world.
Hope this clears out any confusion. Any other ?'s ask away but i don't have any other photos of it apart. I only took pics of the clutch that was wore out at the time with my phone to show someone else.

Here's a little more in depth from wikpedia

"Overdrive in Europe
The vast majority of overdrives in European cars were manufactured by an English company called Laycock de Normanville (later GKN Laycock), at its Little London Road site in Sheffield, which is now demolished and remanufactured in the UK by an ex-Laycock de Normanville employee trading as Overdrive Spares. The system was devised by an Englishman, named Captain Edgar J de Normanville (1884 - 1968)<SUP id=cite_ref-Motor1968_0-0 class=reference>[1]</SUP>, through a chance meeting with a Laycock Products Engineer. De Normanville overdrives were found in vehicles manufactured by Ford, British Leyland, Jaguar, Rootes Group and Volvo to name but a few. Another British company, the former aircraft builder Fairey, built a successful all-mechanical unit for the Land Rover, which is still in production in America today.
The first production vehicle to feature the Laycock system was the 1948 Standard Vanguard Saloon. The first unit to be created was the A-type overdrive, this was fitted to many sports cars during the 1950s. Several famous marques used A-type overdrives, including Jaguar, Aston Martin, Ferrari, Austin Healey, Jensen, Bristol, AC and Armstrong Siddeley. Later the A-type overdrive was to be fitted to the entire range of TR cars.
In 1959, the Laycock Engineering Company introduced the D-type overdrive, which was fitted to a variety of motor cars including Volvo 120 and 1800s, Sunbeam Alpines and Rapiers, Triumph Spitfires, and also early 3-synchro MGBs.
From 1967 the LH-type overdrive was introduced, and this featured in a variety of models, including 4-synchro MGBs, the Ford Zephyr, early Reliant Scimitars, TVRs, and Gilberns.
The J-type overdrive was introduced in the early 1970s, and was adapted to fit Volvo, Triumph, Vauxhall/Opel, American Motors and Chrysler motorcars, and Ford Transit vans.
The P-type overdrive marked the last updates and included both a Gear Vendors U.S. version and a Volvo version. The Volvo version kept the same package size as the J-type but with the updated 18 element freewheel and stronger splines through the planet carrier. The Gear Vendors U.S. version uses a larger 1.375 outer diameter output shaft for higher capacity and a longer rear case.
Over a period of 40 years, Laycock Engineering manufactured over three and a half million overdrive Units, and over one million of these were fitted to Volvo motorcars.
In 2008 the U.S. company Gear Vendors, Inc. of El Cajon, California purchased all the overdrive assets of GKN to continue production of the U.S. version and all spares for J and P types worldwide.
The system features an oil pressure operated device attached to the back of the standard gearbox operating on the gearbox output shaft. Through a system of oil pressure, solenoids and pistons, the overdrive would drop the revs on whatever gears it was used on by 22%. For instance, the overdrive system applied to a Triumph TR5 operates on 2nd, 3rd and top gear. When engaged, the overdrive would drop the revs by approximately 450 rpm. The advantages this had on fuel consumption was quite marked over long distances."

this is amazing! i am on a ford forum and discover info about over drive fit on volvo(vintage) that i am very familiar with ! A part from my f250 my other ride for the last 20 years is Volvo 120 and 140 series( a 66 and a 1968) and I can tell you guys, those over drive are very very strong. I have pull twice cost to cost of Canada in winter condition and true the Rockies with a trailer about 4500lb (most of it on the over drive!) by-passing the 4th gear relay the over drive will work on 2 3 4 gears no problem! it pop out on the first. I am talking about a over drive over 40 years old with 300 000 miles!!!! Thanks for the history lesson.

Then you are as familiar as I with the known original application. The volvo's used a 4th gear indicator switch that would only allow activation of the solenoid. Also had a reverse switch to also break the connection so there were no accidental activations in reverse. Any late 80's upto 87 used the p-type. If aquired you just need the adapter and input shaft coupler and output yoke from gear vendors to add it to your Ford. Of course GV doesn't want you to know that.:-innocent

I had a 1960 Austin Healey 3000 that had the overdrive in 2, 3 and 4.

Made that thing a lot more fun to drive in the mountains with plenty of gear selections.

I knew that overdrives like this were more popular on cars before the late 70s and 80s, but never could figure out why they would loose that wonderful add onin LATER years. Could it be that apathy was really that deep in those eras?

Great post, BTW.

If you go back up and look at the list, the overdrives started in Europe where fuel costs have always been higher.

With the fuel shortages in the 70's and early 80's they made their way across the big pond.

Then when the fuel prices dropped again, no one wanted to pay more for the overdrive, so they faded.

Fuel starts going up again, and now the car companies are building them right into the transmissions.

I have no doubt if fuel went back below 50 cents a gallon, we would probably be seeing direct drive transmissions again.

I just like the idea of one that I can activate when on the freeway that costs less than $2500!

The Hone O Drive seems like a fairly simple design that is nothing more than a mechanical lever (or an electrical solenoid) activating a syncro collar to shift a planetary from direct to OD.

It looks like it, or something like it, could be cheaply made, or roughly duplicated, using some existing transmission parts to get something in the neighborhood of a .75 to .65 overdrive.:-dancing1

If I could make one for $1000 and save $1500 by deleting the hydraulic control, I would!

You would be surprised by the number of over-sized parts that can be machined down to fit another application.

In the early sixties there were quite a few american made overdrives. I had a 65 rambler that had bucket seats and a console with a 2 stick setup from the factory. The shifter on the right was overdrive abd you could split all 3 gears. This was a cast iron unit intergrated with the three speed. Even in the 50's studebakers and some fords had overdrives. Kinda like hydraulic clutches late 50's and early 60's then disappeared for 25 years different generation of engineers I guess.

50's and 60's were cheap fuel but the start of the interstate system and higher driving speeds.