locker or LS in front diffie
 

I have 1976 F250 Highboy w/ Dana 44/60. I had a limited slip installed in the rear diff. Problem is, if one tire gets good traction and the other is spinning, then I do not go anywhere. I have been stuck in my own driveway with one rear tire on the concrete (not spinning) and the other in loose gravel (spinning). So, I am not very fond of the traction control of the limited slip.

I am ready to put something in the front diffie. I want to go with a locker, b/c I want both front wheels spinning when i engage the 4wd. Is there any reason i would not want to put a locker in the front diffie? Should I go with a LS? Ratcheting locker? (BTW, i am not in the market for the selectable air/lectronic locker, and my mind is pretty made up about that.) Thanks!

So what do you think happens to the rear on curves & dry pavement having a locker?

Lockers are for straight-aways (racetrack)

a locker will break your traction in the front in the snow, not a good deal.

Sounds like your LS was not working either. You can use an air locker for a front or rear axle and get the best of both worlds, but of course your mind is made up...

Well it might be a good idea unless you want to see your truck on its lid in the ditch. Regular lockers (Detroit) are scary enough in the rear if you're on slippery stuff. A locker up front can rip the steering wheel right out of your hands when it catches. Get a selectable . . . electrac if you can as they'll function like a limited slip when they're not engaged.

Yeah, get a locker in front -- unless you actually want to be able to steer... Believe me, I've thought about it. My International has a Dana 70F in front, a big Timken in the rear, both open differentials. The Dana is much easier to change to a PowerLok. If I ever get my intended plow on the rig, that might be handy. But once the hubs are locked, a front locker could make steering more of an "adventure" than a predictable activity. One cannot count on always being in loose snow or dirt.

Seriously, a locker has drawbacks, even in the rear. My Suburban has factory locking diff. Hit the gas quick, to make a left turn out of an intersection when it's slick, and you're likely to spin the inside wheel. With one turn of that inside wheel, the locker operates; that usually breaks loose the outer wheel. With both wheels spinning, lateral stability is gone and the rear end tries to pass the front. :eek: My '62 Scout with locking Dana 27 used to do that, when running in 2WD and pushing a little snow. OK, it's not always that bad, if you pay really close attention and get off the throttle quickly.

But a locker in the front would be terrible, just turning a city street corner. When you think about it, the ideal setup is manual lockers on both ends. Face it, 99% of the time we don't need limited slip or lockers. During that 1% or less, when we really want maximum possible traction, we can engage the lockers. The reason you don't see this setup on a stock American vehicle is ... Liability! Yeah, some Bozo will leave it in lock when he hits the street, then sue when he fails to make the corner. Manual lockers show up on Unimogs and various foreign 4x4's. And, of course, WE have the option of going aftermarket and buying ARB lockers.

If you can afford ARB lockers, go for it! If not, don't risk anything worse than a mild limited slip in front, and ALWAYS remember to disengage the hubs when going back onto the hard roads.

:-X22

How about a Detroit True-Trac up front? This is a helical gear operated limited slip ideal for front axle applications in 4x4 vehicles.

I have a locker in the front diff of my Jeep along with the not so hot LSD that comes with your typical Dana in the rear. The combo works FANTASTIC offroad. On the road is another story but I rarely use the 4 wheel drive on the road and if the locker isn't under torque it is isn't locked. If you have selectable hubs you could still use 4wd pretty easily with one hub in the free postion. That way only one front wheel will be turning all the time making turns a breaze.

Sure it would be nice to have two selectable lockers, but for a couple hrs. work and a couple hundred bucks you can vastly change the off road capabilities of your truck and you won't get stuck in your driveway.

off road mostly
 

I should have prefaced my question with, this truck only sees pavement on the way to and from off-roading. Occasionally, I will drive it when I need to haul something in the bed. I also will drive it in inclement weather, in which case i am not really goosing the gas pedal. So, I really want maximal traction out of my rig.

Other than difficult steering on slippery sufaces while accelerating, are there any other reasons why a locker would be bad in the front diffie?

:-X25

You can also break parts with a locker on pavement. Not a good idea on a fragile front end. Steering is very difficult on dry pavement.

Yeah, that D44 won't appreciate it much.

Locker fears
 

Your limited slip sounds screwed up. Sounds like you just have an open diff. Get selectable lockers like the ARB and never look back. All the horror stories about Detroits and things are just hooey. Once you get used to it and are prepared for it to be different than an open diff you will be fine. I think there is also some confusion between what a locker is and what limited slip is on this forum. I could be wrong but I was unaware that Chevrolet offered lockers from the factory. Foreign vehicles often have lockers from the factory though. I have a Unimog and a Pinzgauer that both have lockers front and rear. I will say the D44 will be your weak link though with a locker in the front. A Detroit in the rear will wear tires funny and be a little loud. But, you get used to it and that is the price you pay for the capability these things have to offer unless you go with selectable lockers. For some real information about lockers and things you need to look at an off road forum where these things are an everyday upgrade. No offense to anyone here but I know that these old fords are fabulous trucks and I have three right now and it looks as if I may have four as they have found my 74 F250 that was stolen from me two years ago BUT I love real 4x4's that have lockers and I really appreciate portal axles. Flame suit on!

I need to read better.
 

I apologize if my previous put the same info about Unimogs and things as another user already put out there. My bad. FYI, Toyota Landcruisers got factory electric lockers in I THINK 1993 or 4 for North America standard. Our sue their ass off mentality keeps us from having lots of cool stuff!

i think the new yodas have a locking rear end too, the trd ones. the mercedes gwagon has front and rear lockers. the h2 has a rear locker, theres alot of vehicles for sale here that come factory with lockers, mostly in the rear though.

Thanks for the info guy!

I understand that compared to the 205 Tcase and the D60 in the rear, the D44 is the weak link. But, is it really such a weak diffie that I should worry about putting a locker in it? I mean, it is still a pretty heavy duty diffie.

When the tires twist it into a pretzel on dry pavement with the locker it wil break. It makes horrible crunching and snapping noises...

You would not believe the places I can go with my 2.5L Jeep Cherokee wearing only 31x10.50s.

Lock it! Then rebuild that rear LSD. You are gonna love your truck.:-X22

i say rebuild your rear and lincon lock your front. make sure you have manual hubs and some spare axels. :-X22

In my 79 f-250, I run a powertrax/no-slip locker up front on the dana 44. In the rear limted slip on the dana 60. [ note manual locking hubs ] Both w/4.10 gears runnig 33" tires. I only drive it in 4x4 mode off road.i wanted as much traction as i could get. It works great. However if you need to use 4 wheel drive on the road, do not use a locker up front. Add as limted slip up front, like the trak lok. The reason i run limited in the rear is because my truck gets driven a lot on the road, wanted to keep it safe, lockers do not snow or ice. I will add a selectable locker in the rear when i have the money.

Trackteck, the company that builds the Detroit brand of lockers suggest not using a Detroit up front but using True Track instead. I put True Tracks in the front and the rear of my 68 Bronco and what a difference. They are classified with the limited slips but don't function at all like a clutch type LS. If you let off the throttle while going around a corner you can't tell they are there, even on snow! When on the throttle It always spins both tires even if one is on dry pavement and one is on grass.
When crossed up with one front and one opposite rear tire in the air applying the brakes slightly while giving it some gas will give power to the tire with traction.

Clutch type LS units are worse for sliding the ass end sideways on slick roads then True Tracks and selectable lockers are ether completely open or locked, no in between, bad for steering.
The ideal choice would be a Detroit locker in the rear and a True Track in front.
I didn't want the Detroit because the 68 is very short and Detroit's make them drive funny. That supposedly is not a problem in long bed pickups.

On uneven ground the Bronco will honestly go in 2wd with the True Track where it use to take 4wd. And 4wd is more fun than you can have with 2 hookers!!
SAY THIS WITH ME:
Lockers are not scary!
Lockers are not scary!
Lockers are not scary!

Hey, 72 Camper Special, I wish I could visit and look over your 'mog and the Pinzgauer! Now if we could just figure out how to put a set of Unimog portal axles under a Ford F250.....8D

FYI, I just walked out to the street and got the original window sticker (both pages) from our 1996 K2500 Suburban. It says "LOCKING DIFFERENTIAL-REAR AXLE. $252.00." Now this is a GM corporate axle, not a good old Dana Spicer locker. But I assume it operates in a similar manner. (Hey, I just noticed those twits charged me $25 for a "high capacity air cleaner." What is that all about?) The cold climate package was a deal at $33. You'll spend more than that, putting in your own engine heater and some extra underhood insulation.

Yep, sounds like a Tru-trac or a Torsen is the way to go in the front, if a guy isn't going to just buy ARB lockers. :-X22

Of course, we can really get crazy and get Mattracks....;)


http://www.mattracks.com/

Dexter, sounds like GM got you on the locking axel and the high capacity air cleaner
Could it have a Gov-Loc in 96?
TO TEST GOV-LOC:
1)Put #1000 pounds in bed of pickup
2)park up hill with one rear tire on dry pavement and one rear tire on grass or gravel
3)put in drive and stomp gas pedal

If rear end grenades you useto have a factory locker

Ihave run lockers front and rear for the best a detroit in rear and and true trac up front except that the true trac does not allways work if you want a front end that always works get a locker especially if you only want off road performance

:-wow LOL! Hey, 68 351 bronc, do you have a NON-destructive means of testing???:rolleyes:

My Suburban weighs 6,500, empty and low on fuel. Fill the 42 gallon tank, put in some people (up to nine) and gear, and you've got a hefty rig -- maybe even up to the 8,600 GVWR. The locker has operated a few times, for sure. It's a GM corporate "14 bolt." I haven't tried any deliberate tests as radical as yours. I recall once power braking it a bit, with one tire on loose gravel and the other on wet asphalt. When I felt spinning, I thought the locker wasn't working. I had underestimated the front brakes and the torque of the big block; I looked back and saw both tires were spinning. I did recently notice a bit of a noise, and detected high temperature that appeared to radiate from the pinion area -- so Mr. Goodwrench rebuilt it at around 192,000 miles. I think this axle is GM's attempt to make a Dana 60. Mine is a 4.10 ratio.

Unfortunately, my '77 F250 also has a 4.10 ratio (if the VIN decoder is to be believed. But its old C6 does not have an overdrive gear or lock-up converter. This does not make for great gas mileage. Also, the F250 acts like an open diff, but the VIN indicates limited slip. Maybe it's just old and tired. At least it should not be hard to find any internal pieces needed for a Dana 60.

This discussion thread has some good ideas and experiences. I think if I had the money to do it right, I'd go with ARB lockers on both ends. I like the idea of having open differentials until such time as I choose to lock them. :-X22

Mog and Pinz axles
 

Well, the Pinz axles won't go under a Ford but the Mog one will with some driveshaft adapter type things. Lots of fabrication involved but then you would have selectable lockers front and rear. I have seen guys use a cable to operate them in other vehicles after the Mog's rod system is gone...The Pinz axles are pretty much Pinz axles I suspect. I see no way to do anything custom with it.

I would install an air locker in the front.

Had a locked front in one truck and ran it in 3 wheel drive through the FLA swamps so we could steer when it got tough locked the other hub just to get out.

Everything I've ever heard about locking diffs in the front is it's a bad idea. On dry pavement things break. In loose conditions the vehicle becomes uncontrollable or difficult to steer. In loose stuff the locker tends to make the truck want to plow ahead because the inside and outside tires are locked at the same speed. A selectable locker in the front is really the safest way to go.

If you realy want to lock things up put one in the transfer case too.

I will bet what ever money you have that the transfer case on his 76 4wd truck is locked while in the 4wd mode. Do not confuse 4wd with AWD. They are different and the difference is the reason why you never drive a 4wd on dry pavement while engaged and why doing the same with an AWD is no problem.

My '78 Bronco (fullsize of course, with D44 in the front) came out of Michigan Truck with the Ford limited slip in the rear and the dana limited slip in the front.
Having driven it as a front-wheel-drive for a short period after the rear driveshaft fell out, i can tell you that steering can be a handful if there's a traction differential between left and right sides! Truck wants to immediately steer towards the side where there's no traction!

A Ford l/s can be made to work very well by shimming up the clutch-pack springs, and the Dana l/s works quite well in the front.

my truck has power steering. do you still think steering is going to be a handful?

\
Absolutely; so is mine.
Power steering is an assist, but it ain't magic!

There are many types of "locking" differentials. Don't confuse a spool with a mechanical locker.

Most clutch type limited slips act worse on slippery roads than mechanical lockers. The Detroit will let one tire go faster than the other, like the left tire when making a sharp right corner,the power would be going to the right tire. But try to spin the tire and it will lock.

The true trac absolutely acts like an open diff until torque is applied. With a true trac you can jack up one wheel off the ground and spin it with almost no resistance. If you want to drive off of the jack just put it in gear and the tire in the air will start spinning, apply the brakes slightly and power will go to the tire on the ground and off it will go.
Ford puts the True Trac in the single rear wheel F350s SD stock as the limited slip option.