Water Pump question
 

I thought my thermostat was going south as the beast started to heat up the other day. It normally runs around 170-180 but climbed to 200+ then would drop back down. Ten minutes later back up for a few minutes then drpped some but stayed about 190. I got home and it took about 1-1/2 gallon of water. Replaced the thermostat and did a test drive stayed about 180. Got home and it took about a gallon of water. Thinking it may have not been full due to air in block. I took it for a second test. Came home and it took 3/4 gallon of water.
I used water instead of anti-freeze just to check for leaks, I plan to redrain and fill with AF. No leaks, no drips, no errors in replacing the Thermostat. I do not see any steam coming from any where or out the exhaust. Could it have been a second air pocket and I just didnt get it filled all the way?
The question is there any way other than looking in the raditor to see if water is moving via the pump?
Thanks for any suggestions you may have. I will appreciate all comments, help and will even enjoy smart a$$ comments if you want to give me any.
Thaanks, Dave S

take out the thermostat and run it for a bit with radiator cap off. maybe she will burp. run the heater too, what the heck???


Did you drain or replace fluid recently? check your oil, hopefully no creamy white stuff??


Good luck

Hi Kevin - I replaced the water. No water in the oil and oil pressure is good. I'll try no thermostat and see what that does.

Before that, try parking it with the front uphill as high as you can get it, and yes, turn the heater on full blast, and with the radiator cap off (obviously, not with a really hot engine).

Good idea Ross. Thank you. You don't think having to put that much water in it is unusual?

I have to assume it was low to begin with, or got hot enough to blow it out the relief tube. If I didn't believe that, I'd have to assume something terrible was wrong with the engine...

Yes, that's a lot of water. 10 qts has to be almost half a complete fill?

I didn't see or smell any steam/antifreeze. I think I'll give it another try tomorrow and see if it runs low on fluid again. If it does as long as there is no water in the oil or steam coming out of the overflow/relief tube. I'll assume it's the pump. The worst part is a rebuilt one is $375.00 plus shipping. Bummer.

Try this guy for your waterpump


Rebuilt Antique Water Pumps, Master Cylinders & more in Florida | Cowboy Johns Auto Parts

Thanks Ford348. I'll give them a try after the test today.

Did the same 8 mile test and waiting for it to cool to see if it burned off as much water as before. Temp guage was good the whole time - no H2O in the oil or any visable leaks.

I'll call Cowboy Johns but wonder if any one has used KANTER or Stephen Allen's to buy a water pump? They are much better priced than the place I usually get the "beast" parts. Only difference is I have to send them back my old core- no big deal to me. Thanks again for the help. Dave S

If it were the pump it would almost certainly behave the same way (overheating or leakage at pump shaft) every time. I bet you're good to go. Does the Stude use sealed bearings on the WP or oiled bushings? Does it have an oil cup on it?

Ross just checked it after this mornings run and it was down just short of a gallon again. The pump has a grease cap (as does the distributor) that I check and give a half turn about every two months. The fan seems solid and does not wiggle. I think the pump is bad. I was thinking of removing the top hose at the radiator ( directing it to bucket with longer hose ) starting the engine and see if there is flow. What do you think ?

Remove the radiator cap while the engine temperature is cool, not hot anyway. Fill radiator to within an inch or so of the top. Apply brakes and start engine. Allow engine to warm to operating temperature. While engine is warming up, observe inside radiator neck for coolant circulation. When you detect coolant circulation, replace the radiator cap. If the coolant is being expelled from the coolant system, it should soon be apparent. BTW, make sure your exhaust pipe is not expelling water.
I've never heard of a configuration this old and high radiator fill that required "burping".
Good luck, Dave. I doubt if it is the pump unless it has thrown the impeller.

Thanks Ray - I have not seen any water/steam out of either the overflow or the exhaust but will test it this way. It maybe the steam is coming out the exhaust and I just can't see it with these old eyes of mine.
If not the pump what do you think it could be? Blown head gasket between water and ??? as there is no water in the oil? I'll let you know how it goes.

Check the carpet under the heater... although I would think you'd see steam

On these old vehicles with huge cooling systems the fill may be even more than an inch below the top, do you have a manual?

Ross no carpet just rubber mat and no water showing anywhere. I have the manuals and it hold 14 QTS. I am trying Ray's test now so should know if a short time if I can see flow.

Ok - did Ray's test. When first started it had smoe minor bubbles for less than a minute. I assume they were from adding water. Got up to heat and temp said about 180 (guage has a 170 mark as that was what original ther was set for -current is 180) and water came out of the raditor filler. Then it is below the point I can see it so don't know if the overflow was just the therm opening and steamed water pushed it out. Checked around, over ,under, in front of, behind and in the vehicle and found to leaks. Checked the oil and it looks OK. Checked the exhaust and no steam.
Could it be I just put too much water it in and the level it wants to be is below where I can see it in the raditor. This has me lost
Damn orphan cars anyhow.

It sure sounds like it burped. Did you refill it after it warmed up, while it was still running? Not quite to the top, but close. I'd try that, then put the cap on and drive it around.

Not sure I'd use a 180 thermostat. What pressure do the Studes run at?

Did the stationary test. Went down a gallon. Cooled it off refilled it and took it for another test drive. Down a gallon in 8 miles. I could not see any leaks, or steam coming out anywhere. Going to try another static test tomorrow and see if I can find the place it is coming out. It is not going into the block the oil looks good. I did find a rebuilt pump for $150 so I'm ordering it also. Will let you know what happens.

Thanks for the update, Dave. A gallon in eight miles should show up as a pretty steady drip if the coolant is leaking and some white smoke if it is burning thru the engine.
Have you pulled the spark plugs and examined them and the cylinders? If the coolant is going thru the engine, it should be apparent.

I'll check the plugs tomorrow Ray. At least the oil is clean so no water there.

Have you tested the rad cap? AutoZone will loan a tester. I would think just idling in the driveway you'd see a leak this big.

Have you re-torqued the head gasket?

Hi Ross - the system is not pressurized as far as I know (but then again what do i know!) The reason I say that is the overflow tube is below the cap in the fill area then runs down to the ground- no catch can. Doesn't that make it a non-pressurized system so the cap would just be a seal and not really have anything to do with the problem? I appreciate your knowledge and input as both you and RAY have always been very good to help me on the "beast". Thanks Dave S

Dave, if the cap has two sealing surfaces it is a pressurized system. The lower sealing surface will pressurize the radiator itself. There will be a shelf seal an inch or so below the top of the tank. The top sealing surface will keep debris out and force the overflow coolant to exit the overflow tube as the temperatures rise and the coolant expands. My SWAG, it has a pressurized system, perhaps 4 psi or so. Pressure may be stamped on the cap.
Is there room and could you fabricate an overflow tank from a milk jug or other container?
Place it on a splash pan or the frame and run a piece of rubber hose from the overflow tube into the jug?

I should have included pics of the cap and fill area earlier to give you the complete picture. My error and I apologize for wasting your time by not getting all that are helping me the whole story. Ray, I don't see the shelf or the extension on the cap and it looks like the cap would not go as deep as the overflow. This is the same cal I've always had with no overheating just so you know nothing has changed. Dls.

Did you have the engine rebuilt? Or was just the rear main seal fixed? The cooling system looks dirty, at least the cap. It does appear to be a non-pressurized system.

Is that a horizontal plate under the tube? On some radiators, that is to indicate the Full level.

Ross - rebuilt the engine, trans, breaks, elec wiring, buffed out paint and recored the raditor. Yes that is a plate and that is where I fill it too.The overflow is above the plate level. I think it is rusty looking as I am using just water (no antifreeze) because I want to find the problem and it savesa few bucks - I've refilled 6 to 7 gallons so far. dls
Rebuild- with new hardend valves also
I've got about 15-1700 miles on it since the rebuild.

Have you re-torqued the head bolts/nuts?

Agree with Ross, not a pressurized system. With the coolant that rusty, it should be leaving a trail of rust color where it is coming out. If it is burning within the engine, not so. I am surprised that cooling system is so rusty with such a recent rebuild.
IMO, think about pulling the thermostat and running some cleaner thru the system. We need to get that mess out of there.
Edit: As Ross asked, has the head been retorqued? With an accurate wrench and in sequence?

Yes. Did it about 100 miles and 500 miles after rebuild. Remember the oil looks clean so I don't think it is the head gasket. Is it possible to have a head gasket problem between a water port and an exhaust port or some way to get to the exhaust. I have not seen any leaks and the static test in the garage did not show any amount of water on floor. Going to try Rays idea of putting a hose from overflow to a bucket as soon as I finish up work for a customer. Dls

Yes, Dave, a head gasket or crack can allow water to get directly from the coolant to the combustion chamber, become part of the combustion process and go out the tail pipe. Sometimes water in the combustion chamber will cause a miss, sometimes no.

A head gasket leak that isn't real bad (yet) can also allow pressure from combustion to leak into the cooling jacket, forcing water out of the overflow. With a non-pressure system, I would guess that's more likely than water leaking into the crankcase. Water can also get sucked into the combustion chamber on the intake stroke.

Hard to say if the whole cooling system is dirty, or just that cap.

Ok - now what is best course of action? Do I pull the head? Do I do the bucket test first and then let you guys know the outcome? I bet you both just love being my go to mechanics via long distance. I guess you could say at least you are having input to some one who is at least listening and thankful for your help. I do appreciate your help and knowledge. dls

Lets pull each plug, lay them out in a line as they came out. Post detailed pictures of these plugs and we'll see if we can see anything. IMO, it is too early to pull the head just yet.
See what Ross thinks.
IMO, we need to determine where the water is going.

By all means do the catch-can, and pull the plugs. If it's coming out the overflow, I would think it would leave a noticeable puddle in your driveway, just idling. Maybe it takes the higher pressures of driving.

Thanks Ray. Will do it hopefully within the hour. Dls

Left to right 1-6 #3 is black 4 is dark. 1,2,5&6 are grey. It does burn a little oil

Pics of plugs

The ends appear to be running a bit lean, normal for a center fed long engine. I was looking for one or more plugs being significantly different in appearance. In lieu of a bore scope, can you look down each cylinder, looking for anything unusual? A coolant leak may or may not show up in a cylinder.

I can give that a try. I'll have to take engine compartment side off - no big deal- but I don't want my fat a$$ to bend them. I'll let you know - most likely tomorrow morning as the boss has us going out for something tonight.
Thanks Ray I appreciate the help. Dls