belt slip in snowy conditions
 

This is a consistent, repeatable, and predictable problem.


When driving in snowy conditions where there is a ton of snow in the air, either from driving wind or a passing truck on a snow covered road, the belt will slip to the point where the alternator is no longer working.


the belt is only a year old (20k miles), and I've replaced all three idlers (they were bad, nothing related to this).


the tensioner feels very tight.


any ideas on how to keep this from happening? it's a little worrisome driving home in a blizzard and knowing the alternator isn't working and not knowing how long it will take to come out of it.


ideas?

Did you change the entire tensioner or just the pulley on it?

i did not change the tensioner or the tensioner pulley.

just the belt and 3 idlers (2 smooth and 1 ribbed) thus far.

the tensioner feels very tight and tensioner pulley turns smoothly so i hadn't really considered them for replacement up until it slipped in the blowing snow again this week.

worth throwing a tensioner on it?

That's what keeps the belt tight and since it seems to be slipping you either have a weak tensioner or the brand of belt you bought isn't good enough. Most prefer Gatorback brand of belts.

I'm curious - how could you tell the belt was slipping as opposed to the alternator going intermittent?

after a period of time, depending on engine speed, the belt will squeal for a second or two and then the voltage comes back up to where it should be. and the problem is more prominent when you've let off the gas and the engine speed goes down closer to idle. if you are in a driving snow, the voltage doesn't come back up when you step on the gas, then the belt will squeal and all is well again.

but, i've had it happen at highway speed too. i got passed by a semi on the interstate and it was a complete white-out until he got clear around. then i noticed the fan was blowing slower and the volt gauge was lower than it should be. then the belt squealed and everything went back to normal.

you are right though, until i heard the belt squeal, i thought the alternator just got "flooded" out and quit working.

i think i'm going to put a new tensioner on as a matter of maintenance. I noticed more pulley noise this morning as it was warming up. being that all the other idlers are new, the only one left is on the tensioner, so i think i'll just replace the whole works when it warms up a bit. I thought it was fine, but it's really hard to check them for sure by hand.

too cold to do much now. was -4°F this morning, and supposed to be -14°F tomorrow morning.... it can wait :)

Ah ha! I musta missed the fact that it squeals. Does the alt turn freely -as if the bearings are good to go?

Sounds like the tensioner needs to be replaced, but...
I did have a couple issues with my Fusion lately that showed me the range of belt lengths for the same application.
I was going to replace my tensioner because it was rattling.
Turned out that it was at the end of it's travel and hitting cast in "stops".
Looked closer at the belts offered for the car and found an inch and a half difference.
There used to be "belt dressing" adhesive.
I had a can and was going to try and apply it while I was still diagnosing my issue.
The stuff was probably 15 years or more old.
It hit the trash, but back in the day it used to come in handy.
Good luck.

If the belt tension is iffy, the snow in the air is probably is putting water on the belt and giving it some lubrication and causing it to start slipping.

I have never run into it, but I have heard that a faulty diode pack can cause a high pitched squealing noise. Anyone ever experience that?

Only in a radio. :)

replaced the tensioner today.

what a PITA. I'm not sure what kind of wrench they figured on a guy using to change the left side bolt, but luckily i had one with enough bend and long enough to get in there. if a guy had a 1" extension, that'd be the best. a 3" is too long and so is a deep-well socket. but ... after an hour or so of cursing ... i got it.

the bearings in the tensioner pulley were shot as well, so now everything is nice and quiet up front.

the new tensioner doesn't "feel" any tighter than the old one, so we'll see if this helps or not. I'm wondering if the belt isn't on the long side of the tolerances. i think the tensioner is most of the way toward the bottom of it's travel with the belt on it, so that might play into it as well.

if this doesn't work, i'll be looking for a serrated belt, hopefully one that's just a smidge shorter.

on a side note ... what the heck is it with the idler pulleys on the modular motors. every one i've ever had it seems like the bearings in the idlers don't last much more than about 100k before they are shot and squealing. but .. on the bright side, they are ALL new now, so hopefully i'll be good to 200k, at least in that regard.

I don't consider 100K on an idler bearing to be bad at all. It's not like it gets fresh oil on any regular basis. It gets greased once and then it goes through all sorts of heat, cold, rain, ice, snow, and other environmental conditions...all while turning at 1000s of RPMs the whole time.

On another note, you can press out and press in just the bearing instead of replacing the whole pulley. I buy them in a pack of 10 for 15 bucks or so. Now when I change one it only cost me around a 1.50 instead of 20.00.

In case anyone is interested, these are the ones I bought:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/131075163453?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I used a 10mm box wrench on the left bolt of the tensioner when I did mine and it came right out. Just had to break it loose with the box wrench and then it turned right out with fingertips. Took only a few minutes to remove it, change out the pulley for a new one and re-install it. If the bolt was crudded up it could take longer but there is plenty of room to work.


I don't pay $20 for my pullies either, I pay $7 a pop for Dormans on Rockauto and they work GREAT. Only thing that sucks is the ribbed idler is $17.99 but for a 100k item... eh...

well, ever since i replaced the tensioner the belt squeaks on a cold start.

drove in another snow storm last night and when i came to a stop the belt slipped when i went to take off.

next step is a serrated belt, i guess.

frustrating..... i replaced the belt because of this issue, and this belt only as 20,000 miles on it, and the problem has persisted despite everything being new.

i'm REALLY getting tired of working on this truck.

Have you checked the marks on the tensioner to see if it's in the middle where it's supposed to be? When I got a belt for mine there were 4 different lengths available for it- all were within 1" or so. Might try a slightly shorter belt as long as within the range on the tensioner.

This is very weird, you either have a defective tensioner or the belt is too long. What length did you get? I've had great luck with Dayco belts on everything, to the point its all I will use. For the 06 Expy it is a 101.58 length belt.


More Information for DAYCO 5061015


You can also use a belt from an 03/04 truck which can range from 100.59-101" depending on brand if you feel that the 101.58" length is too loose.

That's weird, Dayco lists 101.58 on rockauto, the rest is either 102.25 or 102 1/8 in length.. I got the Gates belt kit, which includes all pulleys and tensioner as well as that 102-1/8 belt, I really hope it's the correct length.. :) How long is the Motorcraft one?

You might be able to read the part # on the old belt that will tell you what the original length was. Mine were too worn off to read. Can't really measure the old one either since it will have stretched some...

Yeah, it's a no-go on reading the old one.. Worn idlers with bad bearings stripped it all off.. :)

Gonna replace it this weekend, just have to get a 1/2 drive breaker bar for the tensioner.. Just hope the new belt will fit! :D

so I just called NAPA and the belt they sell (which is the one I have) is 102.09"


so that may be the crux of my problem. The tensioner is not bottomed out, but it must be at the end of it's travel. (haven't had time to look, too freaking cold out to mess with it)


NAPA sells two shorter belts in that window:
101.63" and 101.11"


These are just standard belts, so I might call around and find a serrated belt to compare. But I think I'd like to stay in the middle of the range.


Not all is lost though, all the idlers needed to be replaced, and a new tensioner is never a bad thing (plus the pulley on the tensioner was bad).


thanks for the help so far. i'll try to post back if I ever get it figured out.

FWIW, I have had the best luck with a 1/2" ratchet and a cheater.


The angle on the breaker bar ends up either hitting the upper hose, or is so far down you can't reach it.

Mine is a 97 so not sure how different it is than yours but I ended up buying the tool. Makes it so much easier.


http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...6081_200396081

I got this breaker bar from HF and its been a freaking GODSEND for working on all my vehicles. I got it on sale for $9.99 but even at full price its cheap. And I've broken loose wheel hub retainer nuts with it so its very stout.


1/2 in. Drive 25 in. Breaker Bar


Makes moving the tensioner in these trucks silly easy.


Now as far as the belt... as tight as you can get is better. I'd get the Dayco unit from Rockauto honestly. They are very thick and beefy belts, super high quality.


This is the one I have except mine is a 2V so it's a little shorter.


More Information for DAYCO 5061015


For pullies, the Dormans on Rockauto are dead nuts silent and much cheaper than paying $20 at autozone especially seeing as you need two.


More Information for DORMAN 419602


And don't be like me and forget the ribbed pulley lol.


More Information for DAYCO 89130


And here is a good 5% discount code which probably come close to covering the shipping costs.


2815880224131570


Put it in the "how did you hear about us" block during checkout.


Yeah I sound like a shill for rockauto... I will not pay box store prices for parts anymore and not having to deal with a 50% chance that the person behind the counter will try to act like they know more about my vehicle than I do is nice too.

Got you beat. I bought their 3/4" drive torque wrench when I had to set the pinion nut on a rear end rebuild. That thing is almost 3' long. :)

3/4" Torque Wrench

I've got that same 1/2" breaker bar. I couldn't get it to fit in there without getting caught on something so bought the tool. I actually bent the breaker bar a little though trying to get a rusted on trailer ball off a bumper lol. It didn't break though!

Borrowed a standard 1/2" drive ratchet from a friend, worked fine. Wasn't too hard to loosen the tensioner, I guess I'm just that strong... LOL! :D


It was really due to do this though, the old belt was falling apart! lol. It did NOT have many revolutions left of its life... :) The other idlers were OK, only one had a really bad bearing. I still replaced them all and the tensioner. The Gates tensioner must have been popped out of the same factory, it was 100% identical to the original one except from missing the Ford stamp. Made in Canada and same casting marks and all. Comparing the Gates parts to the original parts that came out, it seems as it's the same quality on the pulleys. The bearings were a different brand, but I'm sure it's fine. Original ones uses NSK bearings. Belt was fine, length was just right, left the tensioner about half an inch from the end stop of its travel. The engine runs much smoother and quieter and the knocking sound which I thought was the phasers is gone, so I guess it was the bad bearing that made all the troubles.. :) One thing though, the idlers had a bit of a loose fit on the aluminum lugs on the block, it was the same on the old ones and the new ones, is this normal? It was fine when I torqued the bolts, but I had the impression that it was supposed to be a snug fit on those..

i replaced the belt with the dayco poly rib 5061015. $25.99 at advance, not too bad.

here's the tensioner before:

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.for...72a7fd6c5f.jpg


here's the tensioner after:

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.for...fd60788578.jpg

This is before i ran the vehicle too, so it will stretch some.
not a whole lot of difference.

i guess i'll know if it's any better the next time it snows.

nobody sells goodyear gatorbacks in town anymore. they are all gates or dayco. In the past, i've always used dayco, so we'll see if the poly rib is any better than their poly cog was.

edit: wow my new phone takes horrible pictures! might have to take it back and complain! geeze! sorry bout that.

In both pictures of the same tensioner and different belts, the marks seems to be in the same place.

Ok, the gap was like that after I ran the engine, so that's fine.

About the idlers, is it normal that they have a somewhat loose fit on the aluminum lug in the block? I've done many many belt replacements before, but this is my first time to do a serpentine belt and replacement of idlers and tensioner, I had the impression that the idlers were supposed to have a somewhat tight fit on the lugs, but these did not have that, even the original ones I pulled off were a bit loose on the lug after the bolt where removed and the ID of the bearings seemed to be the same. They tightened up and seemed fine when the bolts were torqued though, but not sure if that is the way it's meant to be. Is it? Or does this mean my aluminum lugs on the block is getting worn?

Ive heard the HF torque wrenches are not quite accurate but damn if my $19.99 jobber that goes up to 80 from HF doesn't work great. I probably should spend the $80 for that one for doing the hubs on the truck but... the two I've already done with just using the breaker bar to get the hub nuts tight as hell when they go back on have been totally fine. One I did like 40k miles ago so...

it's a fairly loose fit so that they slide on and off easily.

if you look at the bolt that holds the pulley, you'll see the somewhat conical shaped washer that goes against the bearing. when you tighten the bolt, it will square the bearing to the boss and keep the center of the bearing from turning.

unless it is uber loose after tightening, i don't think i'd spend much time worrying about it. if it was that loose, it'd be the wrong pulley and you'd know it right off.

if the idlers aren't wobbling around when the engine is running, you're good.

double post

i had bad luck with the one HF torque wrench i had. it lasted about 6 months before the ratchet stripped out on one side.

you could still use it if you spun it around to the side that wasn't stripped, so i used it like that for quite a few years. bad part was, you'd get it on a tooth that would hold about 50 lb-ft then it would strip past causing you to go over center and hit your head on the side of your car when you started leaning on it to tighten a wheel lug.

finally got so mad i just threw it away. still had the life time warranty card in the case ... left it in the case with the wrench when i threw the stupid thing out.

replaced it with this:

nice tool for the money. i think i got it for $85 locally. nice long handle making even 180 lb-ft relatively easy to pull (the highest i've used so far). The graduations take some getting used to because each 1/2 turn is 25 lb-ft, but not a big deal.

the only real bad thing about it is that 50 lb-ft is as low as it goes, so i had to buy a smaller 10-100 lb-ft 3/8" drive for the small stuff.

It was the rright pulleys, they matched the ones I pulled off and had the same loose fit, it all snugged up tightly when I tightened the bolts and they definitely do not wobble around so I assume all is well. It's amazing to see the difference, with the old parts the tensioner was dancing around and chasing the tension, as well as the idling was rougher and seemed too low, with a knocking sound that made me think the phasers were going bad. With the new parts, the idling is much smoother and the tensioner is rock solid and doesn't move. The idle sound is now much smoother and quieter, and the knocking went away.. :) It also idles at a better rpm than before. The bearings on the old were really bad, so it's no surprise... It idled at 500-550 rpm before, now it's at 700 and pretty stable at that.

Bottom line, don't assume the worst if you hear knocking or have rough idling, check the drive belt and idlers first and make sure it's in good shape! :) I knew it was bad, just have a way of overthinking the sounds I was hearing... lol

Probably since the idler pulleys should be mounted rigidly.

Well, it's pretty tight when the bolts are tightened.. Anyway, what can be done to fix these? Replace the timing cover?

Yes, or you can helicoil the existing hole to repair the threads.

I'll look into that when I am gonna do the timing set on it, depending on what the timing cover cost. Would be the logical time to replace it if needed, when it's off anyway. Might do the oil pump as well when it's out in the open. but this is a few months down the road, not a pressing issue.. :)