Very interesting to say the least. Since I had no idea of what the plugs in my V10 look like I did a search to find out. Didn't learn much about the plugs but found out theres more to this than meets the eye.
Now for the V10 there are two types of seats/threads whatever and although Ford has a chart describing them Ford has no idea of what seat is in which year models and to use the chart as a reference. Ah! well my 2000 V10 may have a type 1 or a type 3 and then again a 2003 2 valve engines may have a head that was used on a 99 which would be a type 1 instead of a type 3

Full Torque Ford Approved Repair

So even besides the Heli Coil disclaimer Ford has approved Only a hardened aluminum insert because of heat transfer differences in aluminum and steel.
I also notice Type 1 has only 5 threads whereas Type 3 has about 9 threads. The taper seat is different on both. This seems to be a long drawn out proceedure with the possibility of the tap dropping into the cylinder if threaded in too far. Ah! Well maybe $300 Ford authorized repair wasn't that bad a deal after all.
Ah! yes on the repaired spark plug hole the Torque is 34Nm (25lb-ft)
Interesting Whut?

In defense of the fix that started this thread, in any case the reaming and rethreading doesnt gouge out the taper seat, however there is also a taper at the bottom and that one I'm not too sure about unless the thread tap stops cutting before reaching the lower taper.

Yeah I would be VERY leary myself.

I don't know but maybe a maintenance schedule of thread cleaning and re-torque the plugs might be the way to go.

Having done it several times I will tell you that getting a real torque wrench in the van engine compartment is a real challenge, but can be done. I did mine recently. You undo the wiring harness bolts and that gives you enough movement to get the extensions on the plug socket. I used a Kawasaki sportbike long plug wrench that comes with the motorcycle and it has a 17mm head on it which really helps. You won't be able to get 30lbs on those plugs with a 3/8 drive socket handle. The plug moves very little between 15lbs and 30lbs, the threads just tighten down, but I do believe this is the anwer and when I came to undo the plugs I checked and it took 30lbs to undo them too, they didn't come loose. I will be checking mine every 40,000 just to make sure they don't come loose.
Andrew.

You do not need to remove the fuel rail on the vans.

The one problem I have heard of consistently is that Ford mechanics use air wrenches to do spark plugs on these motors. It makes it quicker and they are on a clock. The mechanic who worked on the heads of my 5.4 admitted that to me and then I could not get the plugs out when the time came.
The other problem is that without taking the time to make sure that each plug is torqued properly they will get one where the socket binds in the bottom of the hole and the torque is not 14lbs, but 10lbs instead, then 20,000 miles later or sooner the plug blows out.
If you set your plugs to 14lbs torque you will need to check them every 30,000 because when I did it one of mine came loose by 30,000. Setting them up at 30lbs or even 25lbs would cover most of these problems and the miles between checks would not be so often. Its a pig of a job to just check these things.
My loose one had not damaged the threads badly yet so I was able to torque it to 30lbs and it didn't strip when I did so.
Andrew

Thanks Andrew, that information will be very helpful. I have a couple torque wrenches with 3/8 drives, Craftsman being the best. Theres a good motorcycle shop close by so I'll check into the Kawasaki sportbike long plug wrench. By the looks of the cramped space of the van engine housing, every tip will help.
I figured the harness would have to be unplugged, so that's a big plus not having to do the fuel rail also. Considering it took 30 lb-ft to undo the plug then 20 to 25 lb-ft might be a better setting.

Willis

The wiring does not have to be unplugged. There are two bolts on each side of the engine at each end of the intake that hold the wiring loom on a bracket to the intake. Undo these and it will give you enough movement to get the extension on the right angle to be able to get a true reading. Its very hard with swivel elbow socket joints to get a real reading on torque. Be careful you don't trust the torque setting when the angle is not close to straight down on the plug.
With a regular 3/8 drive socket set handle pulling as hard as I can I can usually get about 20-25lbs of torque on most things, but I did my plugs the first time and one of them came loose because I was using the socket handle on the impossible plugs without loosening the wiring loom and I obviously got very little on the plug. Make sure that the plug socket you use does not bottom out over the plug and contact the head, you will get a false torque reading there too.
The nice thing is that when you are finished this horrible job and you know you have done it right, then you will drive and enjoy your V10 with great confidence and it is a great engine.
Don't use never sieze on the plugs. Use Ford plugs and you'll be fine.
Once I removed the whole air cleaner set up and loosened the wiring the job was definately a lot easier the second time.
Make sure you buy some of the lubricant for the end of the boots where they go on to the plug ($1) at Auto Zone or O'Reilly's. If you don't the boot will rip when you go at it again and you will regret it.
If the van has over 100,000 miles on it you might want to consider buying new boots, they are cheap and O'Reilly has the best price I found, you will still need the lubricant.
This job looks a bit overwhelming at first but once you have done it its okay. Makes you wonder if any Ford mechanics have lost their minds working on these puppies, but they don't change the difficult plugs I am told in many cases and thats a worry.
My V10 has 130,000 miles on it and runs perfect, no problems except two coils which O'Reilly has for 50 bucks each life time warranty, better than Ford $80. I have towed a lot with it and these really are the best engines out there for torque and economy in the big block world today. I just wish Ford would put the 3 valve motor in the vans and motor homes, but the pictures shown earlier in this thread are of the three valve motor and they are having trouble getting those plugs out of the engines in one piece.
I am still a firm believer that engineers should be made to work on what they design at least once to see if they say bad words about their own creations.
Andrew.

Another thing, when you get all the coils off 7mm wrench, and its best to take all the coils off first I have found. You will need to blow off any dirt before you remove the coils and then blow out each hole carefully before you remove the plug. they usually stay clean but I have found dirt in a few of mine, you don't want stuff in the cylinder.
Andrew.

Hi Andrew, my thanks again about not unpluging the harness. I recall there are studs at the in front of (#6 Cyl.) and plastic retaining clips to hold the harness in place. If all I have to do is get a little slack for the harness then that'll make the task a lot easier. The less that's disturbed, the better.

Seems I read this in a tech bulletin pertaining to a 3 valve engine. Nice to have it confirmed about the 2 valve heads, had me wondering. Considering that the paste could be cooked to a carbon over a period of time, then start disintegrating, leaving the plug to work loose in its threads. (Just a thought)
Question, when checking torque at 40000 miles, do you remove the plugs for inspection or just set the wrench for 30 lb-ft and listen for the click?

What lengths of 3/8 extensions do you find most useful to do the job?
cheers Willis

at 40,000 I don't pull the plugs. But change them at 80,000. So the second re torque would be a plug replace. No just check them and put the coils back on and off you go.
On my van I used just about every extension, knuckle, length etc. because each plug requires a different approach, especially on the middle cylinders on the van. With the air cleaner off and the wiring loosened up I used quite a long extension because then I could get the torque wrench (ft lbs) up in there and had room to turn it, up away from the motor a bit more than with a short wrench handle.
yea there is big debate about never seize but the plugs are coated and mine did 65,000 the first time and no sign of seizure, and I just replaced the second set and they all behaved like normal plugs going in and out fine.
Andrew.

The guy who started this thread. I have since put alot of miles on my v10 with my tourqe set at 25ft/pds and re-checked them once and everything is great.

The guys truck with the 5.4ltr. The hole I fixed with a Heli set is still running around without any problems and he drives alot everyday for work.

I don't think there should be anymore confusion as to what torque there should be and what style repair to do for a stripped hole.

Use the Heli kit mentioned at the start of my thread to repair any 4.2ltr, 4.6ltr, 5.4ltr, 6.8ltr... No questions asked and dirt cheap.

Torque them all to 25ft/pds and forget about it till time to change plugs again.

Thank-everyone for the intrest in this topic and all the input given, I never thought it would such a diccusion topic.

Hi bro460, yes thanks for the topic and your experience. This discussion is certainly a worthwhile read. I'll certainly be carrying one of those "Save a thread" kits with me, but if disaster strikes me again, and if the oportunity exists to have the Full Torque repair insert, I'll spend the extra $$ and go for that. Based on the information in this thread and from other threads on this forum, I do believe the spark plug blowout can be prevented by maintenance as Andrew suggests and does on his own vehicle.

LOL :-D The plugs were changed at 110,000 and I've put on about 1350 miles since then, and don't plan much activity for this year. They'll probably pull my drivers license for age before I get 160K on the odometer, so supposidly I'm safe from a plug change for awhile yet. However I do believe I'll be checking the S.P. torque more often (certainly before any long trips) as in the case of a motor home used for camping, time may be more of a determining factor than mileage. Thanks again

Cheers Willis

Here's a post from a guy at RV.net that had the blownoutsparkplug dude do his plugs. He makes a few good points here especially about cleaning the carbon before installing the plug.

I just watched one of the guys at blownoutsparkplug.com replace all ten of my plugs.

Not that big a deal. He spent a lot of time carefully removing things and using a compressor to blow out each hole every step of the way. It took him about 2 hours.

The issue is very plain to me now why there is a spark plug issue. The 4 or 5 threads is plenty to hold the plug. The issue is that Ford had a torque spec that was 14 lt. lbs. Lincoln has the same engine, same heads. Their torque spec was 28 ft. lbs. How many Lincolns do you hear having blown out psark plugs???? Not many. I don't care what anybody or any manual says. 14 ft. lbs. is not tight enough. The plugs start to loosen because they were not tight enough in the first place.

My motorhome with 24,000 miles and the full Banks kit was running fine. But, I just wanted to make certain that my spark plugs were good. So, I hired someoen to change them. Good thing I did! One plug on each side was loose! How can you tell for sure? Well, you use a mirror and a flashlight and you look down into the hole. If the plugs was tight, when you remove the plug, you can see a shiny metal ring where the taper of the plugs sits while installed in the head. If the plug was loose, that metal ring is not shiny silver, but is covered in black carbon.

Now, to hear the experts talk about it. If you just plut a new plug back in the hole with the carbon deposits and torque it to 30 ft. lbs., IT WILL STILL LOOSEN BACK UP! Becuase as the engine heats up, the carbon loosens and you now have a false reading on what you thought you torqued the plugs to.

The secret is to use a custom made wire wheel to buff the carbon off the tapered seat that the plug sits in. Then install the plugs dry (no anti seize) and torque them to 30 ft. lbs. NO, they will not strip out if you torque them to 30 ft. lbs. But, as you install the plug, count the number of revolutions that you can hand tighten the plug. It should be at least 4 to 4 1/2 turns. Any less, and the thread stripping process has already begun on your head.

He pulled the dog house and got as many plugs as he could from each side. Sometimes starting under the hood and finish from in the cab. Not that tough a job. But, he had many specialized tools (extensions, sockets, swivels, etc.) that he made it look easy.

The cost was $400 plus $100 travel if I wanted him to come to me (which I did). He did the job in my driveway. I supplied the air compressor, he supplied everything else. The plugs were Motorcraft SP-479. They have a special nickel coating on the threads that is different from the standard black thread plug that came out of there. It is the only plug he will install.

I'm set. I will never have to deal with this again as I will have long since sold the rig before it will need another plug change.

Good luck.

Hi T18skyguy
A lot of good information in your post, and I'll be saving it for future reference.
Yes the repair kit from "Full Torque" has a special brush for cleaning the carbon, however I didn't think about a loose plug that hasn't blown, you're right there will be carbon deposits that have to be cleaned. When mine was repaired I guess that's why they couldn't put the new plugs in until the specialist inspected everything and OK'd it.
I didn't know that, very interesting, at least now I'll feel more confident when I torque the plugs to 30 lb-ft instead of the 14. I'll bet mine are torqued to more than 14 right now. However it's not a great time of year to be working outside in this area at this time of year. :-D so checking torque will have to wait.
Again good information, worth while knowing for future reference. I now suspect that prior to my purchase of the MH, the plugs were changed as required, but #3 being the most difficult to work on was not torqued properly.
Again since your V10 is in a motorhome, I'm wondering if it's a 3 valve engine or a 2 valve. Ah! no matter, just did a search and the AWSF22E spark plug equates to a AGSF22WM as a replacement as the original (AWSF22E) has been discontinued. However recommended is the supressor spark plug Motorcraft SP479
Thanks for posting your information it's appreciated. I'm begining to feel that the V10 might not be a bad engine after all. At least now if a plug blows it will be partly my own fault for not checking

Cheers Willis

If you don't know what the TIME-SERT repair is, you can have a look at it here.
And again you don't remove the head for the repair. :)
http://www.timesert.com/images/spark...nkit5553sm.jpg
++ Ford Spark plug Repair kit ++ www.timesert.com
Cheers
D

If you get on the Motorcraft site looking up plugs, they recommend antiseize for installation of all plugs in aluminum heads.

I know many disagree.

When a fastener is lubricated - Its torque value is less than that of the same dry fastener.































with dry threads

More info on Anti sieze

No Lube torque value 100%
SAE20 oil reduce by 38%
SAE40 oil reduce by 41%
White grease reduce by 45%
Dry moly film reduce by 52%
Graphite and oil reduce by 55%

perhaps 25-30 ft lbs is for dry threads 14 ft lbs is anti siezed threads
the value 14 ft lbs seems close to a 40% reduction in torque value from dry 30 ft lbs.

I sourced this from a handy dandy pocket reference book every one should own.
Pocket Reference - Thomas J Glover
Published by Sequoia Publishing. Littleton Colorado, USA

Good piece of info.

Doug

so where do we go from here. I used ford plugs, antisieze, and torqued to 15 lbs. How bad did I mess up?? Im thinking about going back into the belly of the beast and retorquing to 25 lbs.?? HELP!

Sprinter,
I share some of your confusion/pain. Forums are the greatest things since sliced bread and hard rubber tires - - BUT, they are this interesting mixture of fact and fiction, or truth and opinion. Lots of times, people are doing their very best to express the truth as they know it, but sometimes the grammar, punctuation, spelling and syntax are so atrocious as to make their statements difficult, if not impossible to accurately interpret.
Sooo, by the time you work your way thru some threads, you have lots of facts, and also some fiction. Opinions can be either of the two or somewhere in between.
To more directly respond to your concerns (and hopefully end my rant), I will make the following comment - - Based on what I've read off-site - - Motorcraft says to use anti-seize on all spark plugs going into aluminum heads. I'm fairly comfortable in believing that they know enough about their spark plugs to back up their statement.
Also, there are several articles written by professionals that indeed support the sort of charts shown earlier in this thread - - i.e. that lubricated threads require much lower applied torques than a "dry" thread to achieve a given axial pressure or tension.
In my opinion (there's that word again), your Motorcraft plugs installed with anti-seize at 15 lb.ft. should be just fine. Depending on which chart you choose, that 15 lb. ft. with a lubed thread may look like a 25 lb.ft. torque on a dry thread.
Like many of us, I'm not a mechanic by training - - But what I AM trying to do is get one of our forum members who is a certified aero mechanic, to research this subject and write a definitive article on it. I'm a firm believer that those guys are several notches above us shadetree types when it comes to wrenching.

Thanks man. I read it all too and just tried to pick and choose what I thought would be best. I guess im just going to keep an eye on things, and have a helicoil kit ready.

As a follow up for some of you, last year in March 2007 I replaced all my plugs. I used anti-seize and torqued to 14-15 ft/lbs. In April 2008 I pulled every coil and rechecked the torque with my torque wrench preset at 14 ft/lbs. Not a single plug was loose. I will continue to do this routine every year. The entire ordeal took maybe an hour tops. I've gotten really good at pulling #4 and #5. :)

Doug

hey, ive been following this post.
i to bought the helicoil kit - but havent used it.
although i did see it at harbor freight tools for 18.99

my question is what is the rite part # and price for the tmesert kit & also the same for the fulltorque kit.

i dont think i want to use the helicoil kit.

thanx for your help

To put a little more confusion on the anti-seize, are we putting it on the tapered seat or not?

Definitely Not just a small amount on the threads alone.

To the best of my knowledge the helicoil kit is a true insert (not a steel spiral).
It has been used with success. The full torque kit will run about $1000 (from the little I can find out about it). It's claim to fame is the aluminum insert, however the tools required make it look like a difficult repair. Timesert also has an aluminum insert ans is $600 cheaper and easier to complete. I'd go with the Timesert repair

hey,
i have another question if you guys dont mind.

im not sure that the use of a hi-temp rtv on the sav-a-thread helicoil thread repair kit is the rite one to use.
it seems more feasible that a red stud lock tight would be better.

i think i want to give this kit a shot, with over 200k if it doesn't work i will get a set of new heads and tear down the motor.

but in the mean time i would like some insight on what type of thread sealant would work better than the hi-temp rtv.

thanx

......................
Following Timesert homepage says otherwise:
++ TIME-SERT Frequently Asked Questions ++


<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 width=500 align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>2.</TD><TD>What materials are TIME-SERTs made of?</TD></TR><TR><TD> </TD><TD>TIME-SERT inserts are made from 12L14 carbon steel and 303 stainless steel.


Ken
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Yep! they still are, however they now also have the Aluminum inserts available, maybe to compete with Lock N Stitch
++ TIME-SERT SPARK PLUG Thread Repair System ++ aluminum spark plug inserts,aluminum sparkplug insert, spark plug inserts aluminum, aluminum inserts, spark plug inserts for aluminum, spark plug aluminum inserts, aluminum inserts for spark plug, alumi
M14x1.25 Standard 4412 and M14x1.25 deep hole kit 4412E

Also to be noted with the aluminum insert you can use a full thread for the spark plug

I have not seen my friends engine yet, but it looks as though you remove the head for this to be used?
http://www.timesert.com/images/spark...ordHandle3.jpg

Hi Predator - - That lower picture in your post looks like one from a TimeSert instruction sheet. Whatever it exactly is, it is indeed OFF of the engine I believe.

However, I replaced the threads in my 01 E450 in all ten cylinders with the Timesert inserts. Heads on the engine, and engine in the van. I think I'm safe in saying that if you can do them in a van chassis, everything else looks easy by comparison.

I'm impressed with the Timesert system, but would not recommend it as a "side of the road" repair.

I also recently used the helicoil kit (before knowing about this site). My experience with the kit was " It was a life saver". The kit worked great and I was glad that I was not pulling a head.
Two days later, the engine began to miss. This, of course, made me go back and inspect the recent repair. When I pulled the plug out, The plug was still holding true to torque, but the end of the plug actually looked as if someone had struck an arc with a welding rod on the bottom end of the plug. Naturally, I ruined the head getting the plug out due to a ball of "weld" on the side of the plug.

The helicoil worked great. I don't know what happened to make the plug go to hell like that... I called myself being super cautious and making sure to catch any shavings from the tap.

At this point, I've gotten sick at my stomach over the whole situation, and haven't removed the head yet. The replacement head is on the way and I'll soon be getting into that beast. I didn't ever here a noise at all suggesting something breaking in there, but as I tear it apart and inspect, I'll come back and post my findings. Hopefully I won't find a damaged piston or valves.

I sent him the part numbers for the Heli Coil kit from earlier in this post. Parts store said it is less than $40.00 for everything. I have not seen the parts yet. My question is, short of making a extension for the tap, how do you hold it that far down in the? I should state that he is not pulling the head to do the job. I figured I have tap sockets, or just make a extension for the tap, and tig it on.

For Jakflash
 

What an absolute bummer of an experience you had! Most of us that have done a lot of our own work over the years, can sure identify with the feeling of having the job just totally tank - - after thinking you did everything correctly!

There will be a lot of interest in your conclusions when you've had a chance to open things up and (hopefully) figure out what happened.

The ONLY thing that comes to mind is that there may have been a really poor heat transfer between the plug and insert, and then the insert and the head. Even if that theory "works," the question is why?

I do know this much: The final operation with the Timesert kit, involves a tool that "bells out" the lower portion of the steel insert. It is considerably expanded by this final operation, and along with the LokTite, is supposed to keep the insert from ever backing out, AND also effect maximum heat transfer.

Others who have successfully used the Helicoil system might have some useful comments to add.

For Jakflash
What you described sounds exactly like what I've had sitting in my garage for months.I'm trying to decide what to do with it. If you did pull off your head,what was the condition of your piston? My plug came out with the Heli coil more or less welded to it. Which cylinder was yours? Mine's fourth one back on passenger side.
Thanks for any input.

Plug thread repair
 

Don't know about your specific case, but Timesert makes a version of their repair kit called "BigSert" - - It is made specifically for dealing with oversized situations involving failed earlier repairs.

It SOUNDS like the helicoil or similar inserts may have a heat transfer problem. Timesert has some additional steps in their system to assure a REALLY tight fit of the insert to the head, to avoid heat transfer issues as well as preventing the possibility that the insert might back out of the head.

. Someone with more experience may have additional information on this. It isn't a new problem as near as I can tell.

Having done all ten cylinders (plug threads) with the regular Timesert system, I come away with the opinion that it is a very successful procedure - - but not one you can do in 15 minutes at a rest stop as some claims indicate.

On my truck, it is the fourth one on the right side also... I've been slowly taking this dude apart, I will have the head off today to inspect the situation. At this point, I'm about $600 bucks into it with buying head kits, head bolts and timing chain kit. I think I got lucky and found a head for $175. A new one goes for $1440. After inspecting the head that I bought, Yes in fact, there is only five threads that hold the plugs in there. The plugs just barely stick in the cylinder... I'm curious to see if I got the plug too deep in there when I helicoiled it. I never heard any noise of it hitting the piston or going haywire at all. It just started missing and made me go back and check it out. I think it may be the heat transfer problem... When it started missin', I drove it home and it would miss some and then smooth out some and miss some and smooth out some and so on. I actually thought I had a defective plug that I bought to get her goin' or one of the others had gone bad.

We'll see when I get off work today. I have to get a bigger harmonic balance puller, mine is actually too small in width to get the three bolts in at the same time. That's the only thing holding me back from removing the head at this point. I couldn't find one on Thanksgiving day.

I'll def post up when I get to see this dude. I miss my truck!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Been drivin' the wife's 4 runner to work and I feel like I'm ridin' a gokart. I love ridin' the ninja, but I can't pull my trailers with it.

Just came from local dealer, placed an order for some parts and got to talking with the parts manager and a service tech on this subject. They said Ford recommends replacing the head, but this dealer has had great success using the Helicoil kit and even suggested to make sure you use the longer Helicoil part in the kit. I asked them about the torque and the service tech said he never puts a torque wrench on them that he tightens till tight. Also said they do not put anti-seize on the new plugs and that it does not need it with the new type of plugs. Service tech looked up torque spec on my 99 V-10 with Alltech and it stated 11ft/lbs. He said "that's not very tight." Take this for what it is worth, maybe we are over analyzing this with heat transfer and correct torque? I am going to PM mine every 20,000 miles and tighten them to 15ft/lbs dry and hope for the best! I will probably keep a Helicoil kit on hand also.:confused:

Well sir I truly wish you all the best, BUT! 14ft/lb with the copper paste results in a much tighter holding force than a plug torqued in dry.
14ft/lb with the paste is equal to about 30ft/lb dry. However it's your engine and your choice.
Cheers
Willey