I am really going for an American nameplate and the big Nissan van in passenger form is huge (like a one tonner) and won't fit in my garage so no V8 there. And they look like a big dumb shoe or something--totally blah in the boy toy department.

If I go foreign nameplate it would be a Sienna or Odyssey which are both US built; the Quest is too rare for parts/service and the dealer network around here is not good. But if I go minivan, I almost default right to Mopar especially with my son's recent news.

May just postpone any new vehicle till spring; if we take any trips this fall or winter my wife is in almost zero cycling form so I could skip the bikes (just do hiking and stuff) and the Subaru would work fine. She just needs to bring the blanket for her lap... Not worth bringing the bikes if we can't do daily 25-50 mile rides and I'm not in that form myself. (One 40 miler wipes me out for a couple days.)

If a tree fell on my van today, I'd prolly go Chrysler minivan...

Funny, we just had a brunch at church yesterday and we were sitting with a nice guy whose wife sings with my wife in choir. Found he's a Ford engineer who worked on the one-piece body side stampings on the E vans and part of the interior sheetmetal layout INCLUDING the freaking engine cover. This the day after playing rock and roll with my retired engineer buddy who designed the E van front suspensions on Fri and Sat nights.

And the GM guy who I'm hitting up for off-lease Tahoes is on my bike club Board (I'm the prez) and he just got moved to Senior Staff Powertrain Engineer at GM--so I have someone to bitch at if I did get a Tahoe w problems :)

And my fave drummer who I've known since I was 8 does final interior layouts for GM and did the seating design for the new Colorado.

As I said, my connected world is SO Big 3 these days...

Happy Labor Day (we're going to a picnic with a retired bud who is yet another former GM and Johnson Controls management guy...)

Thanks for the nice discussion,
George

No resolution yet. My local large-volume Ford dealer (with a good salesman bud in the used car dept) got a couple of Expeditions in, 2014's with 33-34k miles, still under warranty. Rental or lease vehicle and VERY clean XLT's which is right where I want to be (don't need DVD players but like the heated/cooled seats, don't want the $2k electric running boards to break off in Michigan ice/snow). Went so far as to get my wife to come with me on a test drive and we had a nice long ride.

GREAT on an Interstate, quite and insulated from the road. A bit conspicuous looking (my wife said they looked "yuppie"-like and felt conspicuous in it). And if I envision driving winding mountain roads in Colorado, I would prefer to be driving something lighter. But they felt solid.

A regular length Expy will hold a 4x8' sheet of something on the floor with all the rear seats down. But the load height is 34" and quite high for loading in stuff like guitar amps or my wife's suitcases (100 lbs in each one, and one suitcase for each day we're gone...).

I will think about it, but they had a black one (want a light color) and a red one (we have 2 other red cars that we will be keeping). They may be pulling in some similar auction deals in silver, white, or beige/platinum. But I think I really need something less ponderous to drive. My van is a couple hundred lbs lighter unloaded, and drives more like a balloon, but it's van and I can accept that and it's not costing me $$$ to keep it around. If I was towing a lot, the Expy would be brilliant.

The search continues...
George

I'm sure the Expedition is a nice driving ride, but I couldn't get over the high load floor and resultant lack of interior volume.

Thanks for posting your progress, it's interesting to hear your thoughts as you go through this. :)

No closure yet. Still thinking I do not want to make a big investment (over $30k) in an Expedition because if gas skyrockets, I have $30k to lose...and the idea of $100 gas fillups really isn't fun...I have had those in the van with $4+ gas prices.

Decided to start from the economical end of things and review. My wife and I went and sat in a Transit Connect on Monday, with tape measure in hand. Whoever designed the way the rear seats fold down is crazy....it's like there are 50 latches and releases that are like a maze in terms of order, and then the whole thing ends up covered with thin little carpeted trim panels that flap off the back of the seats. Not the kind of surface I would want to roll a snowblower onto. Nice 4 cyl fuel economy but just not roomy in the front seat area which we would want for travel. And no 8' length or 4' width.

Went and reviewed the Toyota Sienna. This is a great package. The middle seats don't hide but slide forward for max cargo and slide back for a wonderful limo experience for 2nd row passengers. We found a 2015 demo and asked if we could take it out for a while. Thank God we did, because my abnormal spine can simply not deal with the "lumbar hump" in the backrest of the seat, even with the lumbar support all the way down. I have 8 screws and 3 rods in my spine and can't afford to inflame it.

My wife and I took the day off yesterday (perfect weather) and took a 250 mile trip around Lake St. Clair. We live on the Detroit side of the lake, and did the full loop with detours into Ontario tracing my wife's family tree. In the Subaru. And my back was perfect....and my wife was comfortable (but did use the blanket in her lap to stay warmer than me).

I think the E150 stays thru the winter as my rolling "man cave" and carrier for Huge Stuff, and the Subaru will be the traveler. If we don't take bicycles, there is tons of room for our stuff and a guitar. If we take bicycles, we can knock them down by pulling off wheels and make it work. Hell, in the 1980's when we were young and newly in love, my wife and I did a New England trip in my SAAB 900 hatchback (with 2 bikes and all our stuff), and followed that with a New England trip with 2 BIG old mountain bikes in the back of my wife's '86 Escort GT that I bought her as her first new car. (I did unbolt and remove the rear seat pieces so we had a well.)

If we could do that, we could fit bikes into the Forester....and for less than a year's depreciation on a new vehicle I could buy a trailer hitch for the Forester, a great trailer hitch bike rack, AND a couple decent hybrid bikes (say $7-800 per) and call them a sacrifice. And the Subaru got 26-27 mpg yesterday.

Mopar minivan is still a possibility if anything is. I will have to do the extended test drive in one to sort out my spine's relationship to the seats.

I really like driving my Subaru; we got down some gravel road dead ends in Canada yesterday (and found a road named after one of my wife's ancestors!), and the thing turns on a dime and crawls up any hill I want it too. And it has a stick so I actually have to drive it.... If we decide the Subaru is not it after a trip or three, I could see evolving that vehicle up in size to an Edge or Explorer sized vehicle which I'd be happy to drive daily.

George

A bike rack is cheaper than switching vehicles.

I understand that well, but traveling with bikes outside, even if they are cheaper bikes, puts them into weather, theft and damage danger, etc. Remember I have had full size vans for 29 years running now and bikes have always been safe, clean, and dry.

A roof rack loses you 2-4 mpg and you can creatively break bikes in low headroom situations; the hitch racks are more aero but the bikes are in the "dirt vacuum" area and if someone taps the back of the vehicle, the bikes are broken first. And while stopping on the road (say a day trip to a museum), bikes outside are a flag for "more tourist stuff inside"... Inside a van with dark tinted windows, yer *stuff* is more concealed.

For the short term I'm going into a holding pattern and committing to the Subaru for travel seems to be a good place to be. I can prolly knock down the bikes and make them fit inside. But that could change by next week :)

George

Quick update--no update...holding onto my '02 E150 probably for the winter BUT early on tabijan mentioned the new small Mercedes Metris van. And the idea kind of blew by me...

But the Metris might just be it!! Footprint of a Mopar/Honda/Toyota minivan but squarer and taller. Cargo version has 186 cubic feet of cargo space. Payload on the passenger version is 1800+ lbs (MORE than my E150) and trailer tow rating is 4960 lbs (compared to 5000 for my E150). Interior cargo height over 50". So this is a real truck!

Also, REAR WHEEL DRIVE and independent rear suspension. None of the local dealers have one but I will be looking at it as soon as I can find one.

Only question I have about it is the engine. TWO liters, 122 cubic inches, with turbo and direct injection, 208 horsepower. For a Gross Cargo Weight Rating of over 11,000 lbs? This does not compute...

Anyway, I still prefer an American nameplate but this is a real truck--kind of like a modern day Astro van but with passenger legroom (I hope). I also believe that the passenger van middle and rear rows come out as opposed to folding, and I am OK with that. The 3rd row will live in the garage attic, and the 2nd row will hopefully be relatively EZ to remove.

I think I brushed off the Mercedes idea assuming it would cost $60k but the cargo van starts at $30k and the passenger van around $34k. Not stupid at all... I'll have to see if it is tolerable on the freeway.

I remember in 1983 I bought a '79 SAAB 900 and was concerned about a 2 liter engine in a 2700 lb car. So 2 liters in a 5000 lb van that can pull 5000 lbs of trailer means I need to shift some paradigms.... It does require premium fuel and EPA's are 21/24 avg 22 so I wonder if the engine is buzzing at speed? 7 speed auto trans. I think they use this drivetrain in a small sport ute and possibly some cars so I will have to see how it's doing.

So there's hope. But snow flies starting this Saturday and I'm not enthusiastic about buying a brand new vehicle and salting it from day one.

George

Very interesting George, I hadn't heard of this one before. Just looked it up, and it looks impressive.

Sure it does, I think it makes complete sense. A 7-speed transmission with a nice, short 4.37:1 first gear and 3.43:1 rear gears. It would easily be able to get 11,000 lbs moving from a stop. That's 32 HP less than the EcoDiesel Ram that's rated to pull >8,000 lbs if I remember right.

You don't need a million horsepower to pull a trailer, which is a fact that we seem to have lost in recent years. That van with 208 HP has a hugely better power-to-weight ratio than any semi truck on the road.

Thanks Tom...you are probably right on the power/weight thing but I still have fears about direct injection and the lifespan of such a small engine for 250k miles... I'd actually feel better if it had an iron block.

The Metris just hit the market last month and I just "found" it about 3 days ago after being oblivious to it so I'm kind of pumped. Thanks again to tabijan for bringing it up a long time ago in this thread (I am in rep jail with him).

And one article noted that 4WD is available in Europe and I want THAT option too! That would be perfect!

Ford should bring the Transit Custom here--I think that is about this size which Mercedes calls a "new" in-between size. But it's exactly the size of a large American market passenger mini (the Ram C/V hit that spot but is gone in favor of the little Fiat van).

Nervous about new German stuff for fear of complex etronics but this van should have less exotic power stuff than the $80k cars. But it still has crosswind stability programs and stuff. Assume I don't need posi with traction control.

Definitely a paradigm shift van. The photo of the rear door opening (huge and square) is SO appealing. And they make them with a liftgate also; I would be happy with either door setup. Cargo van has only a right side sliding door but the passenger van has dual doors.

Gonna start stashing some money...and hoping Mercedes gets 4WD on it by next year for the US market. Wonder how parts/svc will be? Drivetrain commonality with other vehicles is a good thing. But Sprinter/Metris are only sold thru 200 dealers in the US.

George

I wouldn't worry much about that. It's rated for 32 HP less than the 2.0L Ford GTDI engine that they put in the Explorer. The entire EcoBoost line has been surprisingly reliable considering the high specific output.

Mercedes-Benz sells the 2.0L GTDI engine in the CLA-class vehicles that have been out for a couple years now. The CLA250 is rated for the same 208 HP, but the CLA450 ups the boost and makes a whopping 381 HP from the same 2.0L of displacement. If the base design can withstand that much power in an AWD sports sedan I wouldn't worry about 208 HP in a van chassis.

I did some searching and found that our local MB dealer had 2 Metris vans in stock, a cargo and a passenger....so I went there and drove one!

The passenger van I drove was pretty loaded with a sticker of $41k. Interestingly, just like my old BMW, the seats are multi-adjust MANUAL seats which is great. I don't need more motors....the seats have height, bottom cushion tilt, and a continuous recliner knob (seems like I always want an in between position). They do have a power bladder type lumbar support. Interior is tidy, not flashy at all, and all the plastics look very high end, just like my old BMW. Seats in this van were the optional MB-Tex (which is a very nice pleather)....

As per the photos, the back door opening is huge and square and GREAT. Over 50" tall where most minis are 41" at most. Row 2 had 2 seats and row 3 was 3 seats, but the recesses in the floor would let me mount the 3rd row seat where row 2 goes...so lots of options. (They have an 8 passenger version with 2 rows of 3.)

The test van was almost out of gas and the salesman kept me on city streets, but the van had a surprising gutsy and torquey feel with no noticeable turbo lag. Weird shifter stalk that was electronic like a wiper control...

I asked about 4WD and the salesman talked to someone who said MB may start bringing over 4WD vans next April or May. So I'm gonna wait...if they really bring in 4WD soon, it's gonna be like my dream van...so instead of trying to grab a Mopar van before they redo them, I have something worth waiting for.

George

Thanks for the review George!

I have to admit, I find the concept very interesting. We like the Odyssey quite a bit, but overall interior volume is substantially bigger. This seems like a great compromise between a minivan and full-size. It's a real shame the M-B brand image keeps them in the luxury market, because I bet these could compete well in the minivan segment if marketed that way. Did you snap any photos?

Sorry no photos. This van is 52.5" high inside and I just measured my E150 at 51". The other minis all lost ground clearance and interior height for room in the floor for seats. And they further lost the box due to swoopy styling. Odyssey is the worst for that. I repeat--this van is TALLER inside than my E150 and max cargo width is 61.5" which means I can carry a dang QUEEN mattress or couch in it like I do in my big van.

Cargo length is 105" where the other large minis can take a 4x8 sheet on the floor only....so again they hit the size right on the nose.

This van is THE missing link in what I've been searching for. I am showing my wife the brochures and she is flipping out as well.

It is the lowest priced Mercedes, and plenty of contractors use Sprinters, so I don't think they have that much to overcome in terms of the name. And it has a German look and feel just like my BMW. Not gaudy in the least, and no secrets about plastic being plastic, but being darn good plastic.

I gotta find someone in Mercedes management to see if 4WD really might come in next year.

One slight downside is that 91 octane fuel is strongly recommended but it will run on 87 without melting down.

This is the most excited about a vehicle I have been in years and it is the van I would have bought in 1997 and in 2003 when we looked at minis but stayed big with my Savana (POS) and my E150. Got us thru Boy Scouts and my son's bicycle racing, his college moves every year.

George

If you havent written that check for the downpayment yet, you might want to take a look at the Promaster City:


2016 Ram ProMaster City® - Cargo Van and Passenger Wagon

Thanks for the suggestion, tx2, but I have looked at them and would buy a Transit Connect before that. (Also ruled out the Nissan/Chevy city van thingie.)

I would never buy a Fiat. As I predicted they hold the bottom spot in Consumer Reports. And we want a nice vehicle for travel with dual climate control, heated seats, etc; this is really a light city van. I can't imagine driving a dumb little Fiat to Alaska :)

For now I'm gonna salt my current E150 thru this winter. Posi and new Michelins and we are probably not gonna travel full up for a while so we can take my Subaru Forester for now.

My current list:

1. Mercedes Metris (waiting for some user experience and 4WD possibilities, but this is absolutely the best package--right mix of truck and luxury; parts and svc may be a problem; don't want an import really)

2. Dodge Grand Caravan (US made and predictable; QC not great but not as bad as Fiat; comfy for travel; low ground clearance; parts and svc everywhere) Kind of the right no-brainer choice for a Detroiter.

3. Expedition or Tahoe/Yukon (soft spot in my head and desire for a V8 and a really comfy vehicle but it's not a van; load height is 10 feet; sucks gas which is cheap today but won't be during the time I will own it; wife hates the size and vibe but she WILL be comfy in one of these for travel) Also good choice for a Detroiter and I like V8's. (looking at pre-15 Expy's off lease)

4. Honda Odyssey (safe pick but very little ground clearance; comfy but the swoopy styling cuts into interior room; probably the best of all of these for reliability; still an import nameplate but 75% US made; probably the lowest cost of ownership)

Yeah no problem...I was surfing around and saw the promos....thought about your post so I came back here and hung the link...I dont know anything about them other than they are another option out there.

By the way...I put zero credibility in Consumer Reports. Things they have rated highly have been junk, and such vehicles as the Jeep Wrangler have been rated very poorly. Tell that to the millions of happy Jeep owners worldwide. They do get some things right, but other products dont make their 'cut' and yet they are fine for most people. Nowadays I tend to do research for any major purchase on the interweb's owner forums.

Regardless, I wish you good luck in your search.

Well, the end came really fast.

I drove a Metris for a long test drive a few months ago and the driver's seat had too much of a lumbar "hump" and destroyed my back within a half hour drive. Same as the Sienna. My wife and I looked at and drove an Expedition and I really liked the truck vibe, but the lack of vertical cargo space (and cargo cubic feet in general) is a problem and it just won't work for us. We reviewed the Chrysler minivans and found that the seats are seemingly very good for my back. And they were offering Big rebates thru the end of February.

So in the last 2 days, I sold my beloved E150 (to a good friend, so I will see the van around) and bought a brand new silver (on black leather) 2016 Dodge Grand Caravan R/T. The big rebates and discounts (including a friends and family discount from a Chrysler engineer friend) on the new van made this the right time to buy; we have dual climate control, dual power seats, heated seats, Nav in the dashboard, lots of airbags, backup camera, satellite radio on a 506 watt stereo with a subwoofer, and a new car warranty. And Stow and Go seats which disappear into the floor. I will have to see how the Pentastar engine works in the long haul. We took delivery with only 7 miles on the new van and had one of the worst days of the year to drive it home, but it's safe in the garage now.

The Grand Caravan is made in Windsor, Ontario, Canada, and looking up directions, the plant is a 14.5 mile drive from my house. So I've probably smelled paint fumes from that plant. Engine was made in Trenton, MI, about 30 miles away. (The Grand Cherokee plant is only about 5 miles from my house.) It is a CAW built van and I'm happy about that because I come from a UAW/IBEW family.

I owned my '02 E150 for almost exactly 13 years, and had 4 other full size vans dating back to 1986, so I've been a full size van owner for 30 years. I am gonna miss having *that* much room. But the R/T has a handling suspension so it should be more fun on twisty mountain roads. And the fuel mileage should be quite good.

I will still check in on the FTE page out of habit. Maybe when it's time to replace my Subaru I'll buy an Edge or a new Bronco. Can't let all of my Ford van knowledge fall by the wayside. I have been on FTE for almost 10 years now. Suppose I should find a Mopar minivan forum if I need support for the new van, but it won't be the same.

Take care,
George

Check out the minivan forum at Allpar: Dodge, Chrysler, Jeep, Ram (etc) cars and trucks . Not as active as this forum but there are helpful knowledgeable folks. Lots of excitement around the 2017 Pacifica!

Sixto
93 E150 Chateau 5.8 194K miles

our loss....
 

You can check out....but you can NEVER leave...:-X03


Good luck with your new vehicle.

:-X22

Glad to hear you found a solution George, and really hope your new van treats you well. The Pentastar V6 has has a LOT of power, I think you'll be happy with it.

I'm quite late to the party but congratulations! Our '15 GCRT has been, so far, flawless through about 17k miles. Just completed a 2500 mile round trip last week actually. Hopefully you got a good one. Nice color combo too.

Thanks! We are enjoying the comfort a lot. The dual climate control is a revelation, and my wife is using the heated seats even on 60 degree days... 22-23 mpg is easy to take and it hauls butt with the 3.6 (50 more horsepower than the 4.6 in my E150, with 1000 lbs less weight).

Only 3k miles on ours so far; we just did a 200 mile round trip yesterday and I love both the satellite radio and the fact that I can access my own music off a thumb drive. No more piles of CD's...I have 2700 songs on a thumb drive.

I got a trade credit for the OEM Yokohama tires and put a set of Michelin Latitude Tours on it (at around 1k miles on the van) and they are great riding tires. Net price was only about $300, well worth it to me based on the poor ratings of the Yokohamas. Looks like they will be making an LTX M/S in my size now so maybe I should have waited but next time it needs tires...

George

We like the minivan a lot; it's a good utility vehicle for sure. Wife definitely uses the heated seats way more than you'd think they're needed! But, I do still have my beloved Bubba. That's one I never have to worry about the wife driving. Bubba's all mine. Do you find yourself missing the ol' E-Series?

I'm going to swap to the LTX M/S when they come available too. Always had a great experience with that tire.

I miss the space in the big van when we have to load in a couple bicycles for sure--or change into or out of bike clothes inside.

I have not needed to carry any other big loads yet. I liked the ground clearance of the E150 and miss that, but the stow and go seats in the Dodge are just great (if a bit cramped--but I don't ride back there). I was also way less concerned about door dings and stuff with the oldie. Oh, the backup camera on the Dodge is also very cool. I am getting spoiled really quickly.

For ground clearance I do have my '09 Subaru Forester which is my primary DD (and kind of inherits the "beater" status my E150 had) and that has a set of Defender LTX M/S's on it these days. (And Premier A/S's on my wife's Civic, so lots of Michelins.) And I still have my garage queen '91 318is, so I've got 3 vehicles that are mostly "mine"...

I do find myself thinking of a successor vehicle for the Subaru and like the idea of the Edge Sport but those cost a pretty penny--especially loaded up like the GCRT van.

George

We recently traded our minivan for a full size van, and we miss a lot of the minivan comforts. Fuel economy with the new Transit is better than expected, the last tank was at 18 MPG. The old Odyssey got 25 with similar driving conditions though.

We miss the tri-zone automatic climate control, power sliding doors, and low entry/exit height. Just last weekend I installed a factory running board on the Transit, the entry step height was much too high for my wife and kids. It was the right call for our situation, but we're gonna be missing the minivan for awhile.

Riding in the passenger seat of my Transit and thought of you George. The footwell is straight ahead, but the wheel well intrudes a bit.


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Thanks for the thoughts, Tom. It looks like you can put your feet straight out in front of you though? My wife likes a symmetrical position, and she is weird about the angle her feet are at where they rest.

My wife loves the 8-way powered seat in the Grand Caravan as well as the heated seat. It is hard to get a full 8 way power passenger seat in almost every vehicle so this worked out.

She raises the front all the way and likes the stress relief her spine gets. And the Stow and Go seats are just SO cool because we can just make them disappear. I haven't seen any of the back seats for a couple months now--they have been folded down, and we have not had to find a place to store them like I always had to do with the big vans.

No problems yet, but we've only got 4k miles on the G Caravan.

Take care,
George

Sorry to be off topic but is that the Ecoboost 3.7 in your transit ? Or is it atmospheric ?

Yup, they are straight in front. Narrow footwell, but properly aligned.

Really glad to hear you like the Grand Caravan. Minivans are tough to beat for the ease of use and comfort, hope she treats you well. ;)

Nope, the 3.7L is the naturally aspirated option. Have the EcoBoost in my F150 and really like it, but they were extremely tough to find in a used Transit. Test drove an EcoBoost Transit when we bought ours, and they wanted over $10K more for it.

The N/A 3.7L does an impressive job though, it doesn't feel underpowered like we thought it would. Tows our 3,500 lb boat without issue, and delivers 17-19 MPG, so we're happy with it.


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