new calipers, now spongy brakes after bleed
#16
04-06-2010, 01:54 PM
No competent mechanic would permit only one side of a caliper to be repaired / replaced without doing the other one --- at the minimum, a complete rebuild / retest.
There is no evidence that the OP even did what would be minimally required in a lawful brake pad replacement job:
Namely, checking rotor thickness, and if safe, resurfacing it before placing new pads / calipers in.
When only one side of each axle is "repaired" in this manner, there is a risk that the other side (of unknown condition) will fail shortly thereafter.
What is at risk is the other side will shortly thereafter, either fail or jam --- resulting in uneven braking that can cause the vehicle to veer to one side.
For exactly the same reasons, tires are matched on the same axle, and no competent mechanic will tell you "one side of the brake good" and just replace the worn pads on the other side, or allow you to mix and match different types / construction of tires on the same axle.
As for this:
The proportioning valve is not intended to deal with front brake failure.
It only "proportions" the rear, not the front brake action.
It is not known if this vehicle is ABS equipped, and if so, whether the proportioning function has been replaced with the ABS programming.
StopTech : Balanced Brake Upgrades
If it is in fact the front brake portion of the master cylinder that have failed (piston seal failure is most common), then the leaked fluid is ending up in the reservoir, perhaps with some going into the rear master cylinder if the seal there has failed too.
Without a disassembly and bench testing, there is no telling.
However, if the brake warning light is "on", most likely, it is the sensor detecting either a low brake fluid condition, or the pressure differential between the front and rear brake systems as being excessive.
Are you trying to tell the OP that it is lawful and safe to continue to operate a vehicle with the brake warning light on?
Sure, try a bleed... but if that doesn't instantly fix it, it is time to see a qualified mechanic.
OP do not appear to be a licensed mechanic in any jurisdiction.
There is no evidence that the OP even did what would be minimally required in a lawful brake pad replacement job:
Namely, checking rotor thickness, and if safe, resurfacing it before placing new pads / calipers in.
When only one side of each axle is "repaired" in this manner, there is a risk that the other side (of unknown condition) will fail shortly thereafter.
What is at risk is the other side will shortly thereafter, either fail or jam --- resulting in uneven braking that can cause the vehicle to veer to one side.
For exactly the same reasons, tires are matched on the same axle, and no competent mechanic will tell you "one side of the brake good" and just replace the worn pads on the other side, or allow you to mix and match different types / construction of tires on the same axle.
As for this:
The proportioning valve is not intended to deal with front brake failure.
It only "proportions" the rear, not the front brake action.
It is not known if this vehicle is ABS equipped, and if so, whether the proportioning function has been replaced with the ABS programming.
StopTech : Balanced Brake Upgrades
If it is in fact the front brake portion of the master cylinder that have failed (piston seal failure is most common), then the leaked fluid is ending up in the reservoir, perhaps with some going into the rear master cylinder if the seal there has failed too.
Without a disassembly and bench testing, there is no telling.
However, if the brake warning light is "on", most likely, it is the sensor detecting either a low brake fluid condition, or the pressure differential between the front and rear brake systems as being excessive.
Are you trying to tell the OP that it is lawful and safe to continue to operate a vehicle with the brake warning light on?
Sure, try a bleed... but if that doesn't instantly fix it, it is time to see a qualified mechanic.
OP do not appear to be a licensed mechanic in any jurisdiction.
There is no reason to turn a rotor if it doesn't have any significant runout. I set a dial gage up and check it on the vehicle for runout. Turning a rotor that doesn't have any runout is just plain stupid & will cost the customer money for no reason.
You are getting confused on what a prop valve does, it proportions the brakes. The safety valve shuts down the system that has the leak.
I wouldn't know where to start with your master cylinder diagnosis. You obviously know little to nothing about them and I'm not going to educate you on that now.
I'm not trying to tell the "OP" anything about laws on lights being on because there is no law against it being on. You don't need a license to work on any vehicle, if you want to go get ASE certified thats up to the person.
#17
04-06-2010, 04:55 PM
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the van is a 1999 e350 with roughly 110k on it.
gearloose, Im not saying your wrong, but the thing Im having a hard time believing is that the brakes worked fine before they started locking up, and all of a sudden the master cylinder is bad?
btw, the calipers that were replaced were kitty corner to each-other the front right and left rears were replaced.
also, what is OP? outside party? other person?
gearloose, Im not saying your wrong, but the thing Im having a hard time believing is that the brakes worked fine before they started locking up, and all of a sudden the master cylinder is bad?
btw, the calipers that were replaced were kitty corner to each-other the front right and left rears were replaced.
also, what is OP? outside party? other person?
#18
04-07-2010, 08:12 AM
#19
04-07-2010, 12:24 PM
Would you be willing to say that in 50 states and 10 provinces, that once you inspect / touch / test the brakes as a 3rd party (whether licensed or not), that you do not immediately have liability?
It is not a "lawful brake job", but it is about liability the moment you do something to someone's vehicle.
#20
04-11-2010, 12:25 PM
I have been working on, repairing and installing brakes on vehicles for quite some time (almost 40 years).
Some of the advice given in this string is just pure BS.
First, a master cylinger will not cause a brake failure as the op stated.
Second, now I will suggest replacing calipers, brake cylinders in pairs (same axle).
Third, rotors/drums do not need turned/trued unless you replace the pads/shoes. Then I would only clean them up. Then only a full turn if they were out of true.
As a suggestion, I would do a gravity bleed of the system using the fartherest point, really, either rear wheel will do, then bleed the antilock, the right rear, then left rear, then the right front and then the left front.
If this does not solve the spongy problem, then I would take it to a pro. As for a lawful brake job, never heard of that animal. Anytime you work on the brakes, it is a brake job, from simple drum shoe adjustment to major overhaul. Don't overload the op with legal bs, give him advice at what to look for.
Some of the advice given in this string is just pure BS.
First, a master cylinger will not cause a brake failure as the op stated.
Second, now I will suggest replacing calipers, brake cylinders in pairs (same axle).
Third, rotors/drums do not need turned/trued unless you replace the pads/shoes. Then I would only clean them up. Then only a full turn if they were out of true.
As a suggestion, I would do a gravity bleed of the system using the fartherest point, really, either rear wheel will do, then bleed the antilock, the right rear, then left rear, then the right front and then the left front.
If this does not solve the spongy problem, then I would take it to a pro. As for a lawful brake job, never heard of that animal. Anytime you work on the brakes, it is a brake job, from simple drum shoe adjustment to major overhaul. Don't overload the op with legal bs, give him advice at what to look for.
#21
04-11-2010, 02:00 PM
Post Fiend
#23
04-11-2010, 06:59 PM
In the jurisdiction I am in, no licensed mechanic / tech may permit a car to leave a repair facility in an unsafe condition, generally defined as being able to pass a safety inspection.
In effect, if you take your car in for an oil change... and they see, say, a badly corroded front end, your plates will be lifted on the spot.
What it basically turns the mechanics / repair shops into are safety inspectors who are obligated to inspect your vehicle the moment they take it in (and a service order is written up).
I will be glad to provide you with the details in PM.
Once you get the vehicle in the shop, if you refuse the safety required repair --- fine --- if it is unsafe, the mechanic at that point seize your license plates and notify DMV that your vehicle is "not roadworthy".
That is what the world has come to....
A huge chill... for the business.
#24
04-11-2010, 07:00 PM
#25
04-11-2010, 08:30 PM
In the jurisdiction I am in, no licensed mechanic / tech may permit a car to leave a repair facility in an unsafe condition, generally defined as being able to pass a safety inspection.
In effect, if you take your car in for an oil change... and they see, say, a badly corroded front end, your plates will be lifted on the spot.
What it basically turns the mechanics / repair shops into are safety inspectors who are obligated to inspect your vehicle the moment they take it in (and a service order is written up).
I will be glad to provide you with the details in PM.
Once you get the vehicle in the shop, if you refuse the safety required repair --- fine --- if it is unsafe, the mechanic at that point seize your license plates and notify DMV that your vehicle is "not roadworthy".
That is what the world has come to....
A huge chill... for the business.
In effect, if you take your car in for an oil change... and they see, say, a badly corroded front end, your plates will be lifted on the spot.
What it basically turns the mechanics / repair shops into are safety inspectors who are obligated to inspect your vehicle the moment they take it in (and a service order is written up).
I will be glad to provide you with the details in PM.
Once you get the vehicle in the shop, if you refuse the safety required repair --- fine --- if it is unsafe, the mechanic at that point seize your license plates and notify DMV that your vehicle is "not roadworthy".
That is what the world has come to....
A huge chill... for the business.
As for calling DMV and telling them that your vehicle is not roadworthy. Call my DMV with that and they will laugh your butt off the phone after they tell you that it is not their problem. That is what we have mandatory state inspections for. Now if the vheicle will not pass a state inspection when due, they can refuse to issue a new sticker until you fix it. That is about as far as the law allows.
As for a mechanic being a safety inspector, I want mine to do that. If he sees something wrong I want to know about it. My babies ride in my vehicles, but as for your comments (in red), yeah right, just make me smile. Sounds like some shop owner trying to pull the wool over a dingy woman's eyes. By the way, what in the hell is a corroded front end. I have seen corroded battery terminals, corroded body panels but never in my 40+ years of working on vehicles have I ever witnessed a corroded front end. Maybe rusty parts, but never corroded!
#26
04-11-2010, 09:07 PM
I do not know whats state you are in, but it sure does not sound like the United States, but where I am at, there are only two people allowed to possess your license plates. You and the State Police. No shop/mechanic/tech is allowed to take or possess your plates, nor can they hold your vehicle for what you said. You get caught with someone's plates and you can go to jail for up to a year. The State Police in my state looks very serious about that one infraction. They can tell you that the vehicle needs repair work, but as you said, you took it for an oil change. That is all they can do.
That is the law where I am.
Where you are, tort law under UCC applies under state law and federal law.
A few months back they did a "random" inspection of trucks here, and about 10% of the vehicles pulled over were found to be unfit (emissions)... instantly lost their plates... but that is Environmental Protection people.
EGR deletes, tuners, etc. instantly get you canned.
#27
04-12-2010, 07:04 AM
That is the law where I am.
Where you are, tort law under UCC applies under state law and federal law.
A few months back they did a "random" inspection of trucks here, and about 10% of the vehicles pulled over were found to be unfit (emissions)... instantly lost their plates... but that is Environmental Protection people.
EGR deletes, tuners, etc. instantly get you canned.
Where you are, tort law under UCC applies under state law and federal law.
A few months back they did a "random" inspection of trucks here, and about 10% of the vehicles pulled over were found to be unfit (emissions)... instantly lost their plates... but that is Environmental Protection people.
EGR deletes, tuners, etc. instantly get you canned.
And before you throw another comment at me, I hold a State Inspection License for West Virginia. We have reciprocal agreements with most states on the East Coast. All I can do when I find a defect is to notify the customer. If they refuse to have the repair done, I put a rejection sticker on the vehicle. They are then allowed to drive it home and then either repair it themselves, take it to a repair shop of their choice and then they have to bring it back to me for verification. They cannot take it anywhere else for the inspection as their vehicle is instantly entered into the database and the other inspector will be flagged about it.
#28
04-12-2010, 07:26 AM
All I can do when I find a defect is to notify the customer.
If they refuse to have the repair done, I put a rejection sticker on the vehicle.
They are then allowed to drive it home and then either repair it themselves, take it to a repair shop of their choice and then they have to bring it back to me for verification. They cannot take it anywhere else for the inspection as their vehicle is instantly entered into the database and the other inspector will be flagged about it.
If they refuse to have the repair done, I put a rejection sticker on the vehicle.
They are then allowed to drive it home and then either repair it themselves, take it to a repair shop of their choice and then they have to bring it back to me for verification. They cannot take it anywhere else for the inspection as their vehicle is instantly entered into the database and the other inspector will be flagged about it.
Can you tell me in your jurisdiction how long do the consumer have to deal with the issue?
Can they use the vehicle in the mean time?
#29
04-12-2010, 07:33 AM
If one or more critical defects are found on a bus, truck or trailer, an officer will remove the plates and inspection stickers from the specific vehicle unit. Vehicles will not be impounded for failing to meet Commercial Vehicle Safety Alliance (CVSA) out-of-service standards. A vehicle found with a critical defect would be in much worse condition than a vehicle placed out-of-service.
The critical defect criteria set out very clear guidelines for determining when defects are serious enough to be considered critical to the safe operation of a commercial vehicle or trailer. Critical defect criteria have been developed for brakes, wheels and rims, steering, tires and suspension/frame components.
This program is run by Police and inspectors.
A separate program is run for Emissions.
Yet another program is for Mechanics and Techs.
Substantially similar...
#30
04-12-2010, 08:04 AM
I call BS on this. The EPA doesn't seize license plates. What state do you live in?
