Water Injection for gas engines?
#31
12-17-2013, 12:51 AM
Water is not considered a "combustion enhancer".
If you dont have problem with detonation, then you cannot justify water, except for a little cleaning effect. The cost to get the proper equipment to inject it when it is needed, will take a long time to recoup the cost.
Water, by itself, reduces the power produced by cooling the mixture. Only by doing other things (advance timing etc) can you possibly regain some power. Yes, alcohol is a fuel, thats why it is added to the water. It also helps in the cooling process. It does not produce the power of gasoline fuels, but it will mix with water. Wouldnt work very well to pour a quart of gasoline to the water container-----the carb or injectors already add fuel.
"Slightly after the detonation phase"?????? Now what would be the purpose of that? Would that be like closing the barn door after the horse is gone?
Cost is around $8. I am not so broke as I can't justify $8. Have you tried this? The more I read, the more I am convince that this is just the ticket for older trucks with no Computer. I have two points that I know can be overcome but I need to overcome them before install. 1) I saw a safety device on one system that made sure no water could go into pre ignition in liquid form. Need to find that again. and 2) water soluble oil. They call for it in the mix. But I tried to mix lube oil into 70% Isopropyl Alcohol and shook hell out of it. It doesn't stay in solution in just alcohol. So I need a water soluble oil, like we used on metal lathes at school. I need to find someone using this in the real world. And if they are tuning their engines to 24 BTDC and not getting any pre ignition then it makes sense that they are getting more horsepower and more power! So if I can turn the vapor valve off and on inside the cab when I am driving, and it has a safety device to keep any liquid solids going into the engine, it is sure worth a gamble.
Dont buy into the idea that any increase in compression by the water vapor will increase the power lost by the cooling of the mixture and reduced power. Wikipedia is just a tool for information, not the expert nor the "bible" for anything.
"For simplicity--------", Making a well known fact the obvious. Water does not burn, is not a fuel, make it possible and your are rich! I believe thats exactly what I said, water is not a combustion enhancer.
Now back to what I think the original theme was----Water, by itself does not increase MPG. It will, coupled other actions, will help cure some problems, particularly on pressure adders.
I have done a lot of reading on water injection and even have an Edelbrock carb water injection system that I never installed (want to make an offer?
), so I do not consider myself an expert. However, my sources have used it extensively (buick GN's, T-bird supercoupes etc) Have never read of Wikipedia ever using an injection system------------!!
Dont know about the benefits for diesels, I have no experience with them, but can see where it may be a bigger benefit than on gasoline power---interesting!
If you dont have problem with detonation, then you cannot justify water, except for a little cleaning effect. The cost to get the proper equipment to inject it when it is needed, will take a long time to recoup the cost.
Water, by itself, reduces the power produced by cooling the mixture. Only by doing other things (advance timing etc) can you possibly regain some power. Yes, alcohol is a fuel, thats why it is added to the water. It also helps in the cooling process. It does not produce the power of gasoline fuels, but it will mix with water. Wouldnt work very well to pour a quart of gasoline to the water container-----the carb or injectors already add fuel.
"Slightly after the detonation phase"?????? Now what would be the purpose of that? Would that be like closing the barn door after the horse is gone?
Cost is around $8. I am not so broke as I can't justify $8. Have you tried this? The more I read, the more I am convince that this is just the ticket for older trucks with no Computer. I have two points that I know can be overcome but I need to overcome them before install. 1) I saw a safety device on one system that made sure no water could go into pre ignition in liquid form. Need to find that again. and 2) water soluble oil. They call for it in the mix. But I tried to mix lube oil into 70% Isopropyl Alcohol and shook hell out of it. It doesn't stay in solution in just alcohol. So I need a water soluble oil, like we used on metal lathes at school. I need to find someone using this in the real world. And if they are tuning their engines to 24 BTDC and not getting any pre ignition then it makes sense that they are getting more horsepower and more power! So if I can turn the vapor valve off and on inside the cab when I am driving, and it has a safety device to keep any liquid solids going into the engine, it is sure worth a gamble.
Dont buy into the idea that any increase in compression by the water vapor will increase the power lost by the cooling of the mixture and reduced power. Wikipedia is just a tool for information, not the expert nor the "bible" for anything.
"For simplicity--------", Making a well known fact the obvious. Water does not burn, is not a fuel, make it possible and your are rich! I believe thats exactly what I said, water is not a combustion enhancer.
Now back to what I think the original theme was----Water, by itself does not increase MPG. It will, coupled other actions, will help cure some problems, particularly on pressure adders.
I have done a lot of reading on water injection and even have an Edelbrock carb water injection system that I never installed (want to make an offer?
), so I do not consider myself an expert. However, my sources have used it extensively (buick GN's, T-bird supercoupes etc) Have never read of Wikipedia ever using an injection system------------!!Dont know about the benefits for diesels, I have no experience with them, but can see where it may be a bigger benefit than on gasoline power---interesting!
#32
12-17-2013, 04:19 AM
You have a great deal of concern about liquid entering your engine. HOGWASH. In my first car ( 66 chevy straight 6) I dumped enough water in the intake to stall the engine out from 3000 rpm. Large quantities of water will help soften and remove excess carbon deposits from an older engine. There are lots of tuneup in can products at autozone that do just that except they use some light oil instead of water. They do not damage the engine. In my case I drove it for several years afterwards with no issues. In reality regardless of droplet size you would not want to inject anywhere near that much. IT WILL PUT THE FIRE OUT. That is why firemen like water so much 
In reality hydrolock occurs when there is enough water that the cylinder pressure is higher than the strength of the connecting rod. The engine is already snuffed out and it is the shear momentum of the entire vehicle trying to drive that piston up that does the damage. The incredible air velocity in the intake will break up a reasonable amount of water just fine. Problem is fine mist disperses more evenly and cools more effectively and efficiently than random large droplets. Yes you can make something that puts water in the engine for $8, and that is all the piece of junk will be worth. You will have NO CONTROL over the ratio of water to volume of air fuel mix. You will have NO CONTROL of droplet size ( important to avoid wasting large amounts of water and having to refill to often) those systems that you are trying to duplicate on the cheap, are specifically engineered to do both.
In reality hydrolock occurs when there is enough water that the cylinder pressure is higher than the strength of the connecting rod. The engine is already snuffed out and it is the shear momentum of the entire vehicle trying to drive that piston up that does the damage. The incredible air velocity in the intake will break up a reasonable amount of water just fine. Problem is fine mist disperses more evenly and cools more effectively and efficiently than random large droplets. Yes you can make something that puts water in the engine for $8, and that is all the piece of junk will be worth. You will have NO CONTROL over the ratio of water to volume of air fuel mix. You will have NO CONTROL of droplet size ( important to avoid wasting large amounts of water and having to refill to often) those systems that you are trying to duplicate on the cheap, are specifically engineered to do both.
#33
12-17-2013, 04:30 AM
FACT diesel truck/tractor pullers inject over a gallon in some cases in one run down the track "usually" without issues. They really don't worry about how many miles a gallon of water will take them, after you refill yours 3 or four times you will find it a nuisance to do every hour. If you don't disperse it evenly and finely enough the engine will not run consistently enough to be driveable. FACT water injection will remove carbon deposits and reduce cylinder temp before spark. This will greatly reduce potential for pre - ignition. By taking up some space in the cylinder compression will be increased leading to slightly more power and possibly mileage. The greatest improvement on a naturally aspirated gas engine will be under high load at high ambient temperature.
#34
12-17-2013, 04:37 AM
Alcohol evaporates better than water and it burns. It also has quite a high octane itself. It also has the handy property of keeping the mix from freezing. However in a gas engine the alcohol is now part of the fuel ratio unless you compensate by reducing the air fuel ratio you will run rich when injecting or lean when you are not. Not an issue on a race vehicle's but long term on the street it won't help with drive ability. Sure you can diddle with some valve in the cab every time you move the gas pedal a gnats picker up or down
#35
12-17-2013, 04:50 AM
Reality is you can't manually adjust the water flow fast enough consistently enough accurately enough for the incredible changing load on the engine. If you think you can duplicate and produce that for $8 YOUR A FOOL. Anyone can make something to just dump water into an engine. To do it in a way that will consistently improve power, reduce detonation, be reliable and repeatable is going to cost more. Can it be done cheaper than say a kit from snow performance Absolutely. As long as you understand you will have to repeat all of their R and D time and make all their mistakes. As any water injection manufacturer and they will tell you there are a few blown up engines out back of the shop. How much will blowing your engine set you back. How much of your time will you invest before it runs like you "think" it will. When you buy something like this you are not just buying the pieces, you are buying all the time they spent developing, testing, breaking stuff, and warrantee in the results it will produce. For $8 it will either do nothing or wreck your engine. Sorry man to do it right is going to cost you more than 8 bucks. The cheapest way to do it is to try to copy a kit as exactly as possible but that really is no classier than copying on a test in school.
#36
12-18-2013, 06:33 PM
I've been running a Snow Performance water/methanol system for years in my 472 (high compression). I use -49 windshield wiper fluid (50% water, 49% methanol, 1% detergent) and love it. The folks at Snow Performance were really helpful in getting my setup dialed in and next is tuning the new nitrous plate with the water/methanol plate. My plugs look fantastic and I can keep more timing in the motor when running 91 octane. Experiments are great but a proven system has its benefits.
#37
12-21-2013, 05:31 PM
Now thats what I am talking about!
Thank you. That is great. I think I will go with the Novak home system for awhile and ease into the water/methonol thing. I have much more free time to build the Hydrogen Generator and the water/methonol injection system than I have money to buy what I could just as easy build. For instance, I learned how to refoam a speaker of any size for free, and do a much better job than by paying $30 to $40 for a refoam kit. I put it in the instructables on here. It is so much cooler to do it myself, and then know exactly how it works, than blow my car up and curse some poor shmuck that put together a kit, just like I could do! I have purchased a Still and am filing the proper papers to make my own alcohol fuel for Old brown F100. You are using windshield wiper fluid. But when they change their formula to make it cheaper, you will not know what happened. So you use a little soap in your mix? Doing that I could use a drop of Soap into the alcohol and then a drop of mystery oil, then add the water. The oil is to stop the corrosive nature of the alcohol and the REALLY corrosive nature of the Hydrogen Generator! Which is free to build, but damn expensive to buy!!!
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