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2010 Escape Limited 4WD w/3.0 engine

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Old 03-16-2010, 10:24 AM
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Question 2010 Escape Limited 4WD w/3.0 engine

I need your help! I have had two Ford Explorers and loved them. However, my current lease is due to expire, and I have been looking at an Escape. It is a 2010 Limited 4WD with the 3.0 engine and pretty much loaded with all the goodies. The lease is much better than if I took another Explorer, and the one I drove seemed not too much smaller than the Explorers. Also, the MPG is a lot better with the Escape. My dealer, who I trust after 6 vehicles, insists I will love the Escape. But, I have a few questions: How good is the Intelligent 4WD system? Seems odd not to be able to put it in 4WD manually. Any other comments you could offer to ease my mind? I always appreciate your input, and look forward to reading your responses. Got to make the decision within a few days! Thanks!
 
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Old 03-16-2010, 01:58 PM
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The Intelligent 4WD system isn't very intelligent! It's always active, always ON. Under normal driving conditions like dry pavement, everytime you leave from a dead stop you have rear wheel torque which slowly drops as you reach a constant speed. That's why the 4WD gets less MPG.

Don't believe the sales brochure that leads one to believe that it only kicks in when front wheel slippage is detected, it just sends more torque to the rear wheel when front wheel slippage is detect. That's right from the Ford Workshop Manual.
 
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Old 03-16-2010, 04:43 PM
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I can tell you that 3 weeks ago I flew into the Scranton, PA airport the day after 18 inches of snow fell. I didn't have a shovel and I had to wade through the "plow hill" behind my car. After clearing the windshield I just put it in reverse and drove away - it was seriously cool. I have 43,000 miles on my 2009 AWD 3.0 and love it.
 
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Old 03-16-2010, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by wptski
The Intelligent 4WD system isn't very intelligent! It's always active, always ON. Under normal driving conditions like dry pavement, everytime you leave from a dead stop you have rear wheel torque which slowly drops as you reach a constant speed. That's why the 4WD gets less MPG.

Don't believe the sales brochure that leads one to believe that it only kicks in when front wheel slippage is detected, it just sends more torque to the rear wheel when front wheel slippage is detect. That's right from the Ford Workshop Manual.
I would say the 4WD gets less gas mileage because the rear diff and driveshaft are always turning. I don't think it takes any more power to send 5% or 50% of the power to the rear wheels in this scenario. The only way to make a vehicle totally equal to 2WD is to use locking hubs which totally freewheel, and even then, 4WD weighs more.

And frankly, if you are accelerating from a stop on a dry road and hit a patch of ice, it makes more sense to already be sending some torque to the rear wheels already, rather than slamming a clutch on after the front wheels are already spinning out of control.

What exactly do you think would be "more intelligent"? Slippery spots on roads crop up anytime, anywhere, and if the vehicle normally is in 2WD mode, you are in far more danger than if the torque is split to some degree. Combined with ESC, this is ideal for the road.

Audi, Subaru, and other makers of AWD road vehicles, use similar approaches, always sending some power to each wheel.

For real world road use in all weather conditions--where it is most likely going to be used, the Escape works great. If you want a rock crawler, the Escape ain't it but neither is the Explorer.

George
 
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Old 03-16-2010, 06:11 PM
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The Escape is a great vehicle. As far as snow goes, I think it is better then both Than the 96 Explorer it replaced and is as good as our Lincoln Aviator.

Gas mileage is more than 50% better then the Explrorer, my wife drives all city miles and has a heavy foot, she gets 18 mpg around town, We took it on a 1000 mile road trip and got in the high 20's. I admit i was driving for mileage, several tanks were 29 mpg.

Ours is a loaded Limited , she loves it. The one thing I do not like is the seats are not quite right for me. Thats an individual thing, the 86 Ex had the all way power sport seats, they were the best.
 
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Old 03-16-2010, 08:57 PM
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Smile 2010 V6 4x4 Escape Great!

I just purchased one last month and love this new Ford, The 4x4 system to me works excellent. As a retired retired plow shop foreman the second day I had it I took it up on a steep hill where we had trouble with plow trucks getting stuck and sliding backwards and stopped and it took off just excellent on the snow and ice on this steep hill. I have a 2005 SD V10 4x4 and I do not thing that would have done as well. The ECM uses the ABS to see what tire is spinning and applies the brake to slow that wheel down and if all are spinning the ECM cuts the power on the engine so you have no wheel spin. The same system is also used in large trucks that I worked on. I was in some mud and the system seemed to work well in that situation but it was not real bad. So far I like fuel economy ride and size inside I am not a small person. My father has a Explorer and front foot room is better in the Escape than his Ford for me.

2005 SD v10 4x4
2010 3.0 4x4 Escape
 
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Old 03-16-2010, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by YoGeorge
I would say the 4WD gets less gas mileage because the rear diff and driveshaft are always turning. I don't think it takes any more power to send 5% or 50% of the power to the rear wheels in this scenario. The only way to make a vehicle totally equal to 2WD is to use locking hubs which totally freewheel, and even then, 4WD weighs more.

And frankly, if you are accelerating from a stop on a dry road and hit a patch of ice, it makes more sense to already be sending some torque to the rear wheels already, rather than slamming a clutch on after the front wheels are already spinning out of control.

What exactly do you think would be "more intelligent"? Slippery spots on roads crop up anytime, anywhere, and if the vehicle normally is in 2WD mode, you are in far more danger than if the torque is split to some degree. Combined with ESC, this is ideal for the road.

Audi, Subaru, and other makers of AWD road vehicles, use similar approaches, always sending some power to each wheel.

For real world road use in all weather conditions--where it is most likely going to be used, the Escape works great. If you want a rock crawler, the Escape ain't it but neither is the Explorer.

George
Try pulling the fuse marked "4WD" or F11 on a '09 Escape. It will turn ON the dash "wrench" icon as long as the fuse is removed. Compare that sometime and you'll see at least a 2MPG gain.

Well, I expected Intelligent 4WD to work like what is written about it in reviews or engaged only when needed.

How's the chances of hitting a patch of ice in the summer??

The system actually sends rear wheel torque if your coasting down a long gradual hill. I see no reason for that, do you?

We're talking about Ford here, not Audi, Subaru and other makers. I can't say how they have program their systems to operate. I've only tested my '09 Escape.
 
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Old 03-17-2010, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by wptski
Try pulling the fuse marked "4WD" or F11 on a '09 Escape. It will turn ON the dash "wrench" icon as long as the fuse is removed. Compare that sometime and you'll see at least a 2MPG gain.

Well, I expected Intelligent 4WD to work like what is written about it in reviews or engaged only when needed.

How's the chances of hitting a patch of ice in the summer??

The system actually sends rear wheel torque if your coasting down a long gradual hill. I see no reason for that, do you?

We're talking about Ford here, not Audi, Subaru and other makers. I can't say how they have program their systems to operate. I've only tested my '09 Escape.
First of all, I doubt very much there is a 2 mpg diff with the transfer case disengaged...the rear axles, diff, and driveshaft are still being dragged spinning along for the ride, along with their weight. But let's move on from that and even assume that there will be *some* difference in mileage.

I found a 2008 Escape brochure on my bookshelf which says "Escape's optional Intelligent 4WD system is always on and always working. It automatically montors traction (200 times/second) and adjusts torque distribution as needed to give you maximum grip." This does NOT say to me that 2WD is the default...what about "4WD is always on" says to you that it is not always on???

Now, if you have 4 driven wheels on a vehicle for the road, it makes sense TO ME that all 4 wheels should have some power at all times. How many brakes does a car/truck have? Even when stopping gently, how many of them are used? Likewise, even in the summer, roads can be wet, have oil spots, have slick pavement markings, sewer covers, chuckholes or washboard surfaces, etc. that might cause one or more wheels to lose traction intermittently. Think about driving down a dirt road, maybe with some mud puddles, etc. How about going around a corner and hitting some sand? Giving a FWD car some gas on a takeoff while turning a wet corner usually spins the inside tire--the 4WD Escape would prevent that.

It seems as though your definition of "intelligent" is that the Escape should be in 2WD, like a 1965 F250, and when the front wheels start slipping, the little computer man THEN kicks in the other 2 wheels by slamming the transfer case into 4 high. This makes as much sense to me as a braking system that uses 2 brakes until they start slipping and then applies the other 2. FWD vehicles naturally overstress the front tires because they do the steering, most of the braking, and all of the power application. If you can use the rear wheels to ease the load on the fronts, it makes complete sense to me to use them, shifting the torque away from any wheel or axle that starts slipping.

If you are coasting down a hill, the engine is not sending torque (or it is sending negative torque i.e. engine braking) to the wheels, and for reasons I mention above, splitting the engine braking among all 4 wheels makes total sense to me for the same reason as 4 wheel brakes make sense to me. You spread the load, and power on/off transitions end up being smooth, not jerky.

A Subaru STI, which is a performance, rally based road car, has a normal torque distribution of 45% front, 55% rear at all times--and varies it from there based on traction needs. This allows maximum performance on all kinds of road surfaces, good and bad. I cannot find anything on the actual % torque distribution of an Escape, but it makes perfect sense to me that when you accelerate, more torque goes to the rear wheels because the weight shift naturally gives them more traction. Sounds TOTALLY intelligent to me.

If you want to go rock crawling, get an old school truck with a manual transfer case, but for the road, modern 4WD/AWD systems are very intelligent.

George
 
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Old 03-17-2010, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by YoGeorge
First of all, I doubt very much there is a 2 mpg diff with the transfer case disengaged...the rear axles, diff, and driveshaft are still being dragged spinning along for the ride, along with their weight. But let's move on from that and even assume that there will be *some* difference in mileage.

I found a 2008 Escape brochure on my bookshelf which says "Escape's optional Intelligent 4WD system is always on and always working. It automatically montors traction (200 times/second) and adjusts torque distribution as needed to give you maximum grip." This does NOT say to me that 2WD is the default...what about "4WD is always on" says to you that it is not always on???

Now, if you have 4 driven wheels on a vehicle for the road, it makes sense TO ME that all 4 wheels should have some power at all times. How many brakes does a car/truck have? Even when stopping gently, how many of them are used? Likewise, even in the summer, roads can be wet, have oil spots, have slick pavement markings, sewer covers, chuckholes or washboard surfaces, etc. that might cause one or more wheels to lose traction intermittently. Think about driving down a dirt road, maybe with some mud puddles, etc. How about going around a corner and hitting some sand? Giving a FWD car some gas on a takeoff while turning a wet corner usually spins the inside tire--the 4WD Escape would prevent that.

It seems as though your definition of "intelligent" is that the Escape should be in 2WD, like a 1965 F250, and when the front wheels start slipping, the little computer man THEN kicks in the other 2 wheels by slamming the transfer case into 4 high. This makes as much sense to me as a braking system that uses 2 brakes until they start slipping and then applies the other 2. FWD vehicles naturally overstress the front tires because they do the steering, most of the braking, and all of the power application. If you can use the rear wheels to ease the load on the fronts, it makes complete sense to me to use them, shifting the torque away from any wheel or axle that starts slipping.

If you are coasting down a hill, the engine is not sending torque (or it is sending negative torque i.e. engine braking) to the wheels, and for reasons I mention above, splitting the engine braking among all 4 wheels makes total sense to me for the same reason as 4 wheel brakes make sense to me. You spread the load, and power on/off transitions end up being smooth, not jerky.

A Subaru STI, which is a performance, rally based road car, has a normal torque distribution of 45% front, 55% rear at all times--and varies it from there based on traction needs. This allows maximum performance on all kinds of road surfaces, good and bad. I cannot find anything on the actual % torque distribution of an Escape, but it makes perfect sense to me that when you accelerate, more torque goes to the rear wheels because the weight shift naturally gives them more traction. Sounds TOTALLY intelligent to me.

If you want to go rock crawling, get an old school truck with a manual transfer case, but for the road, modern 4WD/AWD systems are very intelligent.

George
I suggested pulling the 4WD module fuse in a Hybrid forum to gain MPG and a '08 FEH owner thanked me as he now gets a solid 2MPG better during the summer.

No transfer case on the current Escape, a PTU rotates the driveshaft all the time. Yep, four wheels, four set of brakes and four doors too! If you read the following from Ford, they think that there is a little computer man to send rear wheel torque "only" when needed.

The rear wheel torque while coasting down a long hill is only a few percent for a split second or meaningless.

I monitor the 4WD PID all the time. Even with a full throttle from a dead stop, I've never seen more than around 30% rear wheel torque. I've read a interview with Ford drivetrain specialist that stated that full throttle starts will direct more rear wheel torque to allow the front wheels for more steering control. Nope!!

I have never seen increased rear wheel torque due to slippage driving on snow and I've tried to force it. Not saying that it hasn't but I've never caught it doing so.

I've have my dealer's service department questions that they couldn't answer, so they inturn asked their Tech Hotline which said the data I asked for wasn't available. I asked how much rear wheel torque is sent when taking off in a straight line. There are tests in the manual for a full locked turn at <5MPH at >20%.

Once you reach a constant speed, rear wheel torque is zero.

Having a similar conversation in another forum and the following was posted by a owner whom emailed Ford with questions about the 4WD system. The second block is from the Ford Workshop Manual.

Thank you for contacting the Ford of Canada Customer Relationship Centre.
> We received your message sent on 11/9/2009 regarding the AWD system in the
> Ford Escape.
>
> In an effort to assist you, we have looked into this inquiry on your
> behalf.
>
> Below is information on our AWD system that is used across the Ford model
> line-up.
>
> All-Wheel Drive (AWD)
> * Continuously monitors wheel speed, throttle position and steering-wheel
> angle sensors to determine the vehicle’s conditions and driver’s intent.
> The system then determines the optimal amount of front and rear torque for
> the given conditions to not only reduce wheel slip but to prevent the slip
> from occurring in the first place
> * Helps ensure the vehicle will be sure-footed on the road in a variety of
> conditions, such as fast cornering, uneven pavement, potholes, slippery
> surfaces and anything that compromises traction
> * Vehicle normally functions in front-wheel-drive mode
> * When sensors detect that wheel slip is occurring or even just likely to
> occur, the All-Wheel-Drive (AWD) system can react within as little as 50
> milliseconds to distribute up to 100 percent of the available torque to
> the rear wheels
> * Controller may detect a difference in wheel speed front-to-rear even in
> good weather, such as when driving through sand, mud or wet leaves
>
> How the System Works
> * All-Wheel Drive uses electromagnetic activation of an internal clutch
> pack
> * Engages when sensors detect wheel slip in the front wheels, and often
> acts preemptively to prevent slip from happening in the first place
> * When activated, the system uses force from an electromagnet to push
> clutch plates together
> * Drive shaft torque is transmitted through the unit to the rear wheels,
> taking power from the front wheel sand sending it to the rear
>
> Benefits of the System
> * No driver interaction is required to activate AWD. It’s there when you
> need it
> * The system can send up to 100 percent of the engine’s torque to front or
> rear as needed to avoid wheel slip
> * Operates with speed and sophistication to help provide peace of mind and
> driving confidence
> * Releases just as quickly, avoiding binding or wheel skid once traction
> improves
> * Benefits on either wet or dry pavement. Because the system can transfer
> torque quickly away from the front wheels, it helps reduce the type of
> understeer often associated with front-wheel-drive vehicles to provide
> improved vehicle control
> * Lightweight with few moving parts, for little impact on fuel economy
> * When AWD is combined with All-Speed Traction Control or the AdvanceTrac®
> system, a high degree of torque can be sent to the wheel with the best
> traction, even if the other three wheels have no traction at all
>
> We hope that the above information provides the answers you are seeking.
> If you have further questions regarding the operation of the AWD system,
> we recommend that you speak with your local Ford dealership. As the
> Customer Relationship Centre is not a technical centre, any technical
> questions should be directed to the dealership.



Four Wheel Drive (4WD) Systems
The All-Wheel Drive (AWD) system consists of the following:
• Power Transfer Unit (PTU)
• Rear driveshaft
• 4X4 control module (coupling device control module)
• Rear axle with coupling device
Torque from the engine is transferred through the transaxle to the PTU. This torque is transferred from the driveshaft to the rear axle, which drives the rear halfshafts. The AWD system, also referred to as an Active Torque Coupling (ATC) system, is always active and requires no driver input.
The AWD system continuously monitors vehicle conditions and automatically adjusts the torque distribution between the front and rear wheels. During normal operation, most of the torque is delivered to the front wheels. If wheel slip between the front and rear wheels is detected, or if the vehicle is under heavy acceleration, the AWD system increases torque to the rear wheels to prevent or control wheel slip.
Serviceable components of the PTU are limited to the output shaft seal and flange, intermediate shaft seal and deflector, and the PTU transaxle compression seal. No internal components are serviced. There should be no need to remove the PTU cover. If any of the internal geared components, bearings, case cover or shafts are worn or damaged, a new PTU must be installed.
 
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Old 03-18-2010, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by wptski
....

No transfer case on the current Escape, a PTU rotates the driveshaft all the time. Yep, four wheels, four set of brakes and four doors too! If you read the following from Ford, they think that there is a little computer man to send rear wheel torque "only" when needed.
............
Interesting stuff, Bill. Thanks for the info. I sure wish Ford (and other companies) were more straightforward about what their little computer men do with AWD.

Again, I know we're not talking about Subarus (but in addition to my Ford van I have a Forester because I wanted a manual trans with 4WD), but Subaru actually has 3 systems and they specifically define them:

1. Auto trans applications (for most folks and grandmothers) have 90% of torque to front wheels, 10% to back wheels in steady state, and vary this electronically. There is also a fuse that can be pulled to disable all power to rear wheels. This sounds the most like the Escape's system.

2. Manual trans applications (like mine) have 50/50 torque distribution and a simple viscous limited slip diff in the center. No electronics (except for the stability control layer on top) and I LIKE it that way. And I can attest that it works well.

3. Aforementioned high performance system with 45% front, 55% rear for max road performance and balance.

So at least they tell you what their little computer man is doing....

Thanks again for the good discussion...
George
 
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Old 03-18-2010, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by YoGeorge
Interesting stuff, Bill. Thanks for the info. I sure wish Ford (and other companies) were more straightforward about what their little computer men do with AWD.

Again, I know we're not talking about Subarus (but in addition to my Ford van I have a Forester because I wanted a manual trans with 4WD), but Subaru actually has 3 systems and they specifically define them:

1. Auto trans applications (for most folks and grandmothers) have 90% of torque to front wheels, 10% to back wheels in steady state, and vary this electronically. There is also a fuse that can be pulled to disable all power to rear wheels. This sounds the most like the Escape's system.

2. Manual trans applications (like mine) have 50/50 torque distribution and a simple viscous limited slip diff in the center. No electronics (except for the stability control layer on top) and I LIKE it that way. And I can attest that it works well.

3. Aforementioned high performance system with 45% front, 55% rear for max road performance and balance.

So at least they tell you what their little computer man is doing....

Thanks again for the good discussion...
George
Manufacturers make claims about how their 4WD/AWD system is going to work. Here's a interest video from Sabaru comparing a few competitors on a incline with rollers: YouTube - Subaru AWD vs. competitors. I wish they would have tested a 4WD Escape!
 
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Old 03-20-2010, 06:05 PM
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Update: March 19th, Picked up the new 2010 Escape Limited today. Very impressive. The Sync is unbelieveable, and the rest of the options are great. I like the rear view camera and the 17" Michelin tires. Engine is quick and responsive, and the MPG will be much better than the Explorer. Thanks to all of you for your replies, comments, and suggestions!
 
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Old 03-20-2010, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Buck 1
Update: March 19th, Picked up the new 2010 Escape Limited today. Very impressive. The Sync is unbelieveable, and the rest of the options are great. I like the rear view camera and the 17" Michelin tires. Engine is quick and responsive, and the MPG will be much better than the Explorer. Thanks to all of you for your replies, comments, and suggestions!
Enjoy the new Escape, Buck....Ford used to sell 400,000 Explorers per year, and they will probably sell less than 50,000 this year, whereas Escape sales will probably exceed 200,000. That says to me that the Escape is the right vehicle for the times and it is very well liked by its owners.

George
 
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Old 03-25-2010, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by wptski
Here's a interest video from Sabaru comparing a few competitors on a incline with rollers:

...

I wish they would have tested a 4WD Escape!
A very interesting video.

I'd suggest they didn't test the wildly popular Escape as it didn't fit their predetermined outcome for the video (marketing that Sabaru's AWD is superior to everything). Not saying Escape's AWD is better than Subaru's, but perhaps it passed this specific test.

They also didn't test Audi's Quattro AWD, it's somewhat related to VW 4-motion, but is/was considered better (at least in 1999).

Need more research....
 
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Old 03-25-2010, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by xciton
A very interesting video.

I'd suggest they didn't test the wildly popular Escape as it didn't fit their predetermined outcome for the video (marketing that Sabaru's AWD is superior to everything). Not saying Escape's AWD is better than Subaru's, but perhaps it passed this specific test.

They also didn't test Audi's Quattro AWD, it's somewhat related to VW 4-motion, but is/was considered better (at least in 1999).

Need more research....
I'd have to say that the Escape's 4WD system doesn't work as described in general sales brochures or reviews because they use the same incorrect source.

I forget who's TV ad with some running belts like a treadmill describing a AWD system that deverts power not only back to front but side to side as in traveling through a curved highway. They seemed to be describing torque to the side and not traction contro functionl.

There's was once a link which is broken now to a graphical description of the Fusion AWD. One could select the driving conditions and it would show the power being deverted back to front or side to side on snow/ice/dry conditions. It also had one for a curved dry highway and power being devert side to side.

The Escape 4WD system is the same as a Fusion AWD. If they devert power side to side on a curve that would mean I should see rear wheel torque at a constant speed on a curve. Maybe that's why that link is broken or gone because there isn't any rear wheel torque on a curve or one might say the system doesn't really work like somebody in Ford Sales or Marketing thinks!

Here's a link to a thread which shows what that graphic looked like, I found a direct link later somewhere: Ford Fusion All Wheel Drive (AWD)

Found the TV ad system to be a Accura(SH-AWD). Got the following from their site. This is sales stuff, no telling of its mechanics!

Though it has the same all-weather attributes of conventional all-wheel drive, Acura developed its revolutionary Super Handling All-Wheel Drive™ (SH-AWD®) system to enhance high-performance dry-road handling. The result is enhanced high-performance cornering that simply can't be matched by front, rear, or conventional all-wheel drive systems.

This proactive system reads a wide variety of vehicle conditions to continuously determine the optimal level of power distribution between the front and rear wheels, and also between the rear wheels.

Power distribution is based on an analysis of wheel speed, steering angle, lateral G-force and yaw rate.

The system reduces understeer and increases stability by turning the outside rear wheel slightly faster than the rest of the wheels, rotating the vehicle through the turn.

The following link explains the mechanics of the complex Accura(SH-AWD) system which is very interesting: SH-AWD
 


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