EDIT: Title should read, "Ode to all of the old Ford vs. Toyota ARGUMENTS from a couple years ago."

I told ya so...

Toyota not looking so shiny now: Howes: Toyota not looking so shiny now | detnews.com | The Detroit News

Couple highlights: "Infallible they aren't, as CEO Akio Toyoda, a scion of the founding family, conceded last month. Toyota, he said, is nearing "capitulation to irrelevance or death" and is "grasping for salvation." He also said the still cash-rich automaker has grown too arrogant on "the hubris born of success" and the "undisciplined pursuit of more."

"Ford arguably is building its best vehicles in a generation, if not a whole lot longer. The Blue Oval is booking monthly gains in its share of the U.S. market, an accomplishment seemingly reserved exclusively for Toyota not too long ago."

 

I'm no yoda fan, but don't count your chickens just yet. Toy won't go quietly into the night, and FoMoCo is a long way from where they'd like to be.

It's encouraging, but Ford can't rest on its laurels.

 

Let's just say I called this a couple years ago.

 

True, but Toyota didn't get where it is overnight either. Anyone remember their Crown from the mid-60's? Styling wasn't great and I went ugh and never gave them a second thought. Times change and move on so Ford can get it right it they stay on the straight and narrow with their game plan...

 

I personally know a mechanic who's mainline is toyota/honda, he can tell you, the "toyota image" is media fueled, industry magazine hype, blind faith, by those loyal to the brand. They are no better than anyone else..............the truth is finally out.

 

that aitn just Toyota, it applies to Honda aswell..

its funny when so many of my fellow workers at the shop are all import fans.. mostly Honda/acura, but they all bug me about driving Fords only..

but u know what... over the years when its thier vehicles constantly breaking down and scrounging for repairs or rides to work, its my FORD truck which gets me to work day in and day out without breaking down or leaving me stranded...

a point i drive home to them everytime one of their import clunkers breaks down...

they usualy fall silent and ask for a ride or help in repairs...

its prolyl my biggest irratant among my buddies the whole "mystique" that imports are perfect and domestics are junk....but im slowly chipping away at it..

one of my buddies looking for a second vehicle (hes been driving Mazdas forever) looking at a F150 supercrew.. cuz he wants a truck for various reasons, and secondly cuz hes seen firsthand how well my FORD trucks have performed over the years i have known him...

 

I may have to beg to differ a bit. In 1986 when I needed a new car I went with Mazda and separated myself from American cars. I bought a 626 and after that two friends bought the same car and two years later my mother bought a '89 626. Mine lasted 20 years and 375,000 miles. The others all made it over 250,000 miles. Four 626's and four great cars with only the normal repairs namely the timing belt. The reason mine went 375K was because I had a stick and the others were automatic. Then came 2004 and a new car needed. Down to Focus or Mazda 3 which were both great performers. Decided to try the Focus ZTS and now after almost 6 years I couldn't be happier with it. No repairs needed at all which I would handle anyway. Deja vu, a friend gave me a 1991 626 last week as he doesn't need it...

 

GM fell because it took its eye off the ball decades ago when it was the undisputed #1. Toyota may go down that path but it is way too early to tell.

Our 1999 Camry is still humming along with over 205,000 miles and EVERYTHING WORKS. It just passed California's strict dyno-based smog check, and has had ZERO major component repairs.

Granted, it is 2009 and quality may have slipped a bit recently, but dont count them out over the long haul. My gripe with Ford's over the past 20 years or so has been driveline problems, automatic transmissions and rear axles, and we dont pull trailers or otherwise abuse our cars and trucks.

There is most likely a spot for a new Ford in our garage, if the Camry ever breaks, but it will be a Fiesta with the manual transmission. Why not another Camry? Not because of quality, but because they are so BORING to drive.

Jim

 

yea that new Fiesta coming over from Europe looks like a winner...

i'm gunna try to get the wifey into one when they arrive ...

 

I know that statement to be true. I use to work in a auto repair shop a few years ago, as a parts changer under the lead mechanic, and we would see an equal amount of ALL makes and models being towed in. Toy has not proven anything, espically with their "trucks". None of the import "trucks" (not even the Honda Ridgeline, dont even get me started on this goofy looking thing) are up to the task that the Domestic trucks are. Just because your import "truck" can pull it, it does not mean it is safe. Ford has been and always will be the truck leader. That being said, everything that is mechanical will break down. They will all break down at some point.
We cant expect something made by non-perfect people to be perfect.

 

Toyota has proven plenty. For example, they have proven they can't be trusted.

Where oh where have all of the old Toyota defenders gone?

Toyota boasted of saving $100M on recall - Feb. 21, 2010
Ex-NHTSA Regulators Hired by Toyota Helped Halt Investigations - Feb. 12, 2010
Runaway Toyota cases ignored - Nov. 8, 2009
Red flags for Toyota models that aren’t recalled - Feb. 10, 2010
Toyota found to keep tight lid on potential safety problems - Dec. 23, 2009

 

thanks for the links.. i fired them off to all my import loving friends..

p.s. one of the other guys in the yard were i work had the hood open on his Honda civic in the rain after work, guess it was broken down..

i drive past and asked him how he liked Honda's relability.. Hahahah...

 

Toyota simply became too "Detroit."

Ford's skirts are not at all clean on the quality issue. Back in the 70s, even their luxury products were junk -- just junk. Their reputation became so dismal that Ford "reengineered": they set up a whole new operation and came out with the Taurus, which was a very nice car and a harbinger of things to come, but even then, they put the TFI unit on the distributor and it would cook itself dead in as little as 50 miles (this, I know from hard and bitter experience). Then in the early 90s, their Taurus automatics were notorious for making perhaps 70,000 miles and dying.

Ford got the quality thing right in the 80s and brought itself back, only to let quality slide for profits ... again. Now they are back to battling their way to a better reputation.

Toyota succumbed to the bottom line and the bureaucratic inertia, same as Detroit. Now they must pay.

Regarding "I know someone" -- well, who doesn't? I can easily find someone who can tell any experience at all. Such stories are often termed "urban legends," and for good reason. Very little hearsay is trustworthy -- what needs to be done is to take a large sample of the product and analyze the results, same as any other statistical endeavor. That is how you separate the facts from the tales.

The facts are that import buyers, from the 60s on to the present day, have had a much better experience than Detroit buyers have. Seeing old rigs like the poster with the 626 sitting in people's driveways has made an impression on the car buying public, and this has developed over decades -- there is a reason behind it and anyone can look at statistical studies and see that imports from Japan HAVE had an over higher level of quality than Detroit. This is why GM partnered with Toyota and Ford bought into Mazda. Even Chrysler's one-time ownership of Mitsubishi helped their overall quality, before they squandered that stake away.

The bottom line here is that the US car industry has been abominably managed, pure and simple, and the reason they are in this fix is because of corporate decisions from the top on down. You can blame the unions, blame the Japanese, blame whoever, but as the famous preacher Spurgeon once said, a fish rots from the head first, and Detroit is an excellent example of that happening.

Now, about Toyota, whether their "mea culpa" is really true or just whitewash for a new substandard set of business practices and quality level in their products remains to be seen. Clearly, they chose the path of easy profits borne by a reputation they had developed with a vastly different business model. For this, only time will tell. Right now, I tend to think that they are still whitewashing, as I think that the likely source of their problems is found in their electronic management -- something that Toyota hasn't been willing to own up to as yet. Such an attitude bodes ill.

Ford has progressed. Going outside of the industry for fresh ideas (Mulally) as a wise choice, rather than when in receivership (as with Whitacre at GM) shows that the Ford family still has some sense, and that this sense outweighed the institutional investors and bankers who held the power behind the Waggoners and Smiths at GM.

We can at least hope that Ford will come thru this time intact -- the signs are good, and haven't been dimmed by Toyota's topple.

But when it comes to Detroit, I feel it is far to early to crow. Not only is there still a gap between US and Japanese cars, China is developing quite quickly, and while one may dismiss their present products in the same way those old Corollas were in the 60s, I think it would be very short-sighted to sell the Chinese short.

 

i dont think its so much crowing as you put it, as maybe some reality finaly coming to light on what the imports are selling TODAY.

if you compare what everyone is selling new today, (not 10 or 20 years ago) i think you'll find the domestic are at least equal if not better vehicles than anything coming from japan..

the real shame is so many import buyers refuse to see what todays market is. they still think imports are perfect and domestics are junk..

 

LOL! The 1970's car's were better than anything produced in the 1980's!

1970's cars did not have TFI modules, AOD's, A4LD's, melting brake calipers, onboard computers and etc etc etc.

The 1986/94 Taurus's were troublesome terds from day one. The brakes got so hot, the calipers melted!

Between 1986 and 1994, Ford re-engineered and replaced the rotors four different times, it didn't solve anything.

The way the front end of the car was designed, the front brakes could not get enough air flow, so the brakes overheated...like crazy.

The transmissions self distructed within weeks when driven in heavy stop and go traffic.

At the dealer I was working as a back counterman, we passed out, on average, 30 planet assy's, sun gears and main control valve's a week plus all the related parts to go with them.

The A/T's used in Escort/Tempo's were just as bad.

Then there's the lovely AOD, the absolute worst A/T Ford ever made, worse even than the A4LD, and that's saying something.

Ppl drove the cars/trucks with AOD in heavy stop and go traffic. The constant shifting up/down .. in/out of OD fried the trans, and it didn't take too long for this to occur, either.

The A4LD was so bad, dealers would not order Bronco II's and Rangers with A4LD's, ordered them w/5 speed manuals, instead...due to myriad customer complaints.

The TFI module was introduced in 1983. This POS: E43Z12A297A / Marked: E3EE-12A297-A1A/A2A was the absolute worst.

This module was used on many 1983/97 cars/trucks. Ford argued for years with the NHTSA over recalling the POS.

Finally, the NHTSA forced Ford to recall 5 MILLION vehicles in the late 1990's to replace them all.

Just think how many were replaced on customer pay RO's over the years. It was not uncommon to go thru 50-75 of these little darlins' a week.

The above is a drop in the bucket, there were many more problems, especially anything to do with electronics...like the in-famous Cruise Control switches.

There were exceptions: I bought a new '83 LTD (midsized) Brougham w/the 200 I-6 (I knew better than to order the awful 3.8L V6).

I drove that car for 15 years without a single problem, then sold it back to the fleet manager I bought it from...he gave it to his daughter. The last time I heard, it was still on the road.

Current DD = 2008 Ford Fusion, bought 6/2008...no problems so far.