Some thoughtful comments please....
In a previous job, I worked for a company that had a substantial fleet of service vehicles (mostly Taurus and Aerostars). On occasion I would catch wind of someone who got "caught" after having gone 20-30 thousand miles without an oil change. I remember one case where the engine puked, but several where the "delay in service" was caught, the oil and filter changed, and the motors continued on their merry way until the autos were turned in at 80-90,000 miles.
So, I ask, do we make too much of a fuss over the "which oil" and "which filter" questions??? Personaly, I think we do. It is my belief that the main thing is regular (3-4,000 mile) service intervals - changing both oil and filter. Oils today are a far cry from where it was 30 years ago, as are the engines that use them. I wonder how often, be it at 30,000, 60,000 or 150,000miles, a motor fails specificaly due to the choice of oil and/or filter used over the motor's life span. Don't misunderstand, I do not doubt that there are some oils and some filters that are "better" than others. I just wonder if that "better' actually, really matters as long as oil/filter are changed regularly. I'm more apt to think that some motors are gonna go 200,000 miles and some are gonna go 100,000 miles. Even if both received regular sevrice. Of course, neglect is another issue all together. I use Shell 10W30 and STP or Purolator or Fram or whatever is readily available at AutoZone, Walmart, Advance, or wherever....
So....what do you guys think? Read the w-i-d-e variety of choices of oils and filters posted in messages here and the mileage on the motors . Does BRAND (include conventional -vs- blended -vs- synthetic) really matter THAT much or is it just a subject we all love to talk about ????

Thanks,
Brian

 

I'd say the latter...

 

I agree. I think regular service is more important than brand names or mineral/synthetic oil. A few years ago I pulled the valve cover off a Ford 2.3L, that had 100K miles on it. During that time the oil was changed every 3-4K, with mineral. The engine internals were spotless, and showed almost no wear. That was enough proof for me.

 

It's not about failure per se, but if you're too lazy to do the research then it is more than likely no-one here is going to waste their time with reasons why - reasons other than failure - it matters.

Judging today's engines (i.e. today's technology) by 80k and 90k mile vehicles, or vehicles that make it to 130k, is a strange practice you have there. If that's how long you keep a vehicle then I'd agree - by all means ignore it.

(In my opinion the worst people in the world to ask about car care or issues are the people who trade their cars before 100k miles.)

 

AH! the proverbial "tongue lashing" - it came sooner than I expected!! GammaDriver, for the record, I am not lazy, I have read and looked and asked, and still my question remains. The choice of mileage figures was a random one; no particular judgement was made on my part, nor did I expect one to be drawn by others, from the mileage figures I threw out for consumption. I have 54,000 miles on my truck, which is 2 years old this month. I plan to give it to my son when he turns 16 years old - he is now 9. So, it is clear I do not plan on ditching it any time soon. (let's see...I'm averaging 27,000 miles per year x 7 years until Alex turns 16..that equals about another 175,000 miles on top of the 54,000 already. Think it will make it?)
per: your response, I ask the question..If one does not use "engine failure" as a primary means for determining the performance of oil and filter, (over the course of many years and many, many, many miles), what other criteria do we use? I would consider a spun bearing, failed valve train components, etc. to be a "failure" and an indication of possible lubrication problems. I am aware of various means of determining wear rates when various oils are used. But, there are too many motors, running too many different oils, at mileage figures in excess of 200,000 miles (again a random choice on my part) for me to believe that in the real world, brand will make a significant difference in the longevity of any particular motor.
So, I STILL think regular service is more important than the specific brand of oil and filter chosen.
Sorry (well, sort of) that I ruffled your feathers. I'll report back in 7 years and let you know.....
Thanks,
Brian

 

OOPS! I forgot...for those of you willing to "waste your time", I would still appreciate any comments.
Brian

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 15-Feb-02 AT 09:46 AM (EST)]My fault for poor word choices late at night. Sorry about that.

Yeah, some people can give tongue lashes, and it does seem to happen a lot in forums like this.

Fuel mileage, ring wear (which is a big fuel mileage consideration above 100k miles, but not really a failure of a part), lower operating costs due to the thinner, less restrictive nature of syns, less coking or sludging on poorly engineered motors (which does actually keep them running longer), cam lobe wear (the protective qualities of syn's allow for fuller lobes for the second and third 100k, thus the owner keeps the 'power' feeling in their vehicles). The cooler temps the engine will run at may mean lower operating costs in gaskets, belts, etc.
The thinner, more lubricative porperty may allow for longer battery, starter & flywheel teeth life due to less use - especially in cold climates.
The highly stable qualities of a syn oil might mean less polution in as far as it being burnt off between oil changes, but it will mean less polution in the fuel mileage saved.
In rarer, but still common, cases of oil starvation (due to oil loss or unusual use of the engine) I know I'd absolutely want a syn oil film protecting my engine over a dino film. That little of a dino oil film will coke pretty quickly, and the time you have to save the engine by shutting it off upon catastrauphic oil loss is extended to at least a few seconds with a synthetic.

No one ever said regualr serveice wasn't important. One will normally need some parts to keep an engine running well past 100k miles if that's what you mean. But a good numer of engines were making it to 200,000 miles 10 years ago - shouldn't most make it a lot longer these days? Granted, some manufacturer's make complete crap now (GM comes to mind), and nearely none, to my knowledge, use everything at their disposal to keep these engines running longer.

But in general, as far as any type of oil (not brand - for you to have used 'brand' over 'type' suggests you actually haven't read much, or you read with a bias - plus you really need to do your studies outside of a user forum like this...), it certainly does matter on how well your engine runs at that 176,000 mile point you're shooting for. Do you want it to run, but chug and use fuel at that point, or to run smoothly? (I'm willing to bet your cylinder walls aren't nickel plated, but I could be wrong.)

Can I prove anything to you now, through a forum like this? No. Am I going to point to studies I've read, SAE, the engineering resources i have one mile away? no. Even after typing all that, you can believe what you want to believe. You are correct in understanding that engines don't run on lubricants alone. You still, however, seem either a bit lazy (i'm realizing this at this point, beacuse I am simply not going to keep typing to appease you when the evidence suggest otherwise, which I am simply not going to research again and supply to you), or a bit of a troublemaker for starting such a thread. If there was no difference in the type of oil used, then you could run around on vegetable or milkweed oil and not worry about it. Heck, racing cars could finally stop using syns and start using tree sap. Whether you believe it or not, plants did not die and become crude oil specifically to lubricate your engine, thus dino oil is not custom-made for your engine - it was just a stop-gap to get by until something that more specifically addressed the frictional properties of IC engines came along. The fact is that there actually are better and worse oils, and engines benefit or degrade depending on the choices their owners make.

But you did make me realize that even with all of that, I'm leaving out tons of my own experiences (experiences attained by not being lazy about it), owners' experiences (through the garage I worked at), proof in turbos & military applications, SAE as well as college studies, etc. etc. You made me realize it's simply not worth conversing about the differences in forums such as this... If someone comes here to ask, they haven't made a real-world effort to understand a thing about it. It was completely my fault for even replying to such a post, and for that I am sorry.

 

Then why would you reply to this thread twice ? If you didn't want to get into all the research in this forum, why even post to the thread?:-X11

 

BrianA: I sorta agree with your observation. I have personally gone 150k+ and have known others to go 200k+ using conventional oil and $3 filters without any noticable increase in oil consumption or decline in engine performance. I have, however recently decided to switch to synthetic oils and 'premium' filters based on manufacturer web sites and message boards like this one. However, I do believe that regular timely oil/filter changes is far more important than brand.

GammaDriver - please consider decaf. I wish I were half as smart as you must think you are. Your assertion that someone too ignorant or lazy to do their own research based on the fact that they post a (very appropriate) message in an automotive oil and lube forum and on your interpretation of their choice of wording in that message and is a bit arrogant and not in the least helpful. The day I feel like I can't ask a question or solicit opinions in this forum will be the day I remove it from my "favorite places' on my browser. I'm a little supprised the moderator and/or some of you regulars had nothing to say about that posting.

 

Oh boy...this is not what I had wanted....GammaPuller - why are you stuck on me being "lazy" ??? I asked for thoughtful comments on the discussion of various BRANDS of oil - to include dino / blended / synthetic. Of course I know -and acknowledged - that some are "better", but was simply asking for various opinions as to whether or not, in the real world, "better" necessarily correlated to longer life. Could my question not be viewed, in the lighthearted nature I typically see in the forums, as an attempt to do some "research". You appear to have an axe to grind and have chosen me as your grindstone. Sorry 'bout that. But please, go back and look at my original question. You provided some excellent info. - above "thoughts and comments" - in your second post. Thanks for that.
Perhaps my question arises from my past experiences...I have used various motor oils over the past 25 years, in cars, trucks, motorcycles, 4 wheelers, etc. And, I have had vehicles up into the 150,000 mile range, and never had any sort of oil related problem on any engine in anything, ever. YES there are "bench" / dyno / etc. differences. And there is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with spending $4.50 / qt for fully synthetic, or choosing only Castrol over Pennzoil, if that is what you (or anyone else) wants to do. Bottom line - again - is I still doubt that -on average- it is gonna make a big difference in the long run. Notice - I did not refute ANY of your emperical data, on the contrary, I will agree with it. In particular, some specialized applications (Turbo) would probably be more sensitive to oil chosen.
Oh, whatever, you get my point.
Thanks,
Brian

 

I was going to stay out of this but seeing name calling always has a way of getting me fired up. Calling people lazy for asking questions and/or provoking thought is absolutely ridiculous. If that is what constitutes laziness then I suppose everyone here should be called lazy because we like exchanging information with fellow Ford truck owners instead of searching out answers from other sources. GammaDriver is obviously a complete automotive genius and has never asked a question around here. Yeah right. When I became a user of this message board I thought the whole point was to stimulate thought and find answers to questions pertaining to Ford trucks in a easy, timely fashion. The old saying "There's one in every crowd" certainly rings true and that dearly upsets me because we all are here because of a common interest. I agree with CrashCrowe, moderators should have stepped in and put a stop to this kind of thing.
Quick comment to GammaDriver,
If you have anything negative to say about any of my comments then by all means look up my email and fire away instead of using this forum. If you're looking for a fight I'll be more than happy to accommodate you but I absolutely refuse to junk up the message board I love so much any further.
Sincerely,
Cope

95 F-150 4x4
4.9L M5OD
Front Truetrac Rear Detroit
3.73 Precision Gears
Warn Premiums
4" Superlift Superunner

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 15-Feb-02 AT 04:06 PM (EST)]BrianA, it's my fault entirely. You have been a gentleman throughout the whole post and I misinterpreted a lot of my reading last night.

My only argument would be that there really aren't specialized applications - like turbos - only different levels of basically the same heat/bearing surface properties. In any engine the conditions are rough. In turbos it is a little rougher, but then it stands to reason that what works in them for 130k miles (remember the 1980's when nearly every passenger vehicle's turbo was expected to only last 60 to 70k miles? that was the oil that did them in...) will work better in a slower RPM engine for 300k.

 

Moderator's are volunteer's and are not on duty 24/7.

Everyone put your hands in your pocket's and breathe through your nose.

This thread is locked.

horsepuller, volunteer moderator

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Unlocked to edit:

Anyone who has posted to this thread and would like to see it unlocked to continue the discussion in a civil manner, please PM me and tell me why you think so.

I myself would have liked to participate in this thread. Aside from the personal low blows, everyone's opinion has value here.

So as far as I know, no threads have ever been locked and then unlocked to continue discussion on the FTE boards. So don't make me look bad, or I'll find the deepest swamp and drive this thread into it and take all of you with me. Just kidding guy's. We're here to learn, trade opinion and hopefully make a few new friends.

Thread locked again.

 

Okay, I think we are all reconciled here. I've unlocked this thread so we can continue discussion in a mature manner as long as we can speak respectfully.
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Yes, I think we probably make too much fuss over our choices of oil and filters. Why? Because we are truck enthusiasts and we enjoy discussing topics which we all have a mutual interest in. Our choice of oil and filter is one of the biggest things that we as owner's have control over in reqard to the upkeep and longevity of our vehicle's.

I agree that regular service intervals are probably more important than brand. All motor oils must meet the same API specification. So in that respect, all motor oils are equal. However...additive packages vary from brand to brand and some may have proprietary product ingredient. Some manufacturer's may state *meets or exceeds* API service specification. So in that sense, some oils may be more equal than others. But the only way to know that is by laboratory testing, lube oil analysis or just your seat of the pants gut feeling.

That's where we form our brand loyalty's that we like to stick with. We all like to feel confident that we have an oil we can depend on when we are subjecting our trucks to extreme service. It's a good feeling every time you pull the dipstick and it's right up there to the top. You know that you are not using or burning too much oil and everything is being lubricated properly. Even on older vehicle's that leak or use oil, you like to know that you will get the most service life out of old 'Betsy' before it's time for rebuild.

Turbocharger's do indeed create an increased demand for an oil. Not only because of the speed they operate, but their high operating temperature dictate's a need for an oil that is more resistant to cokeing. Another stress that a turbo puts on the engine itself is the large ammount of air they compress increases the oxidation rate inside the engine. This is especially true for turbocharged diesel's. So a good turbocharged engine oil will have oxidation inhibitor's.

>Does BRAND (include conventional -vs- blended -vs- synthetic) really matter THAT >much or is it just a subject we all love to talk about ????

Yes. It matters to us as individual's because it make's us feel secure. AND it's a subject we all love to talk about!

 

Wow, the first ever "unlocked thread". We made history here. I hope we don't blow it---I've never been a big fan of Swamp Gas!!
Horsepuller - you nailed my thoughts and sentiments. To his credit, GammaDriver did supply some good information - more in the purely technical arena, but interesting and relevant none the less. My thoughts ran along similar lines as yours...I look at all the oils and see "meets or exceeds API standards" and on oil filters "meets or exceeds all manufacturer's specifications" (or similar wording). So, I have reasoned that somewhere a bunch of engineers/chemists/etc have tested all the oils and filters and approved them (I think SJ is the current rating for oil) as acceptable for use as automotive lubricants. Now comes the human element..I am comfortable with what I use - Formula Shell 10W30 - because my dipstick, at 54,000 miles is as clean as it was the day I bought the truck, I burn no oil, and basicly have seen no reason to change. I can't "look into" my engine and say "wow, this oil is not performing well" so I change the oil and filter every 3-4,000 miles and just expect them to do their job. Personally, I have never been able to "feel" any difference from brand to brand. Not to say there isn't, I just have never felt it.I live in fairly temperate Alabama, so extreme cold conditions are not a concern.
I DO value the "real world" input of folks like me, who like their truck(s) and are intimately involved inb their day-to-day upkeep. Your comment about oil being one of the major things we have direct control over, gets to the heart of the matter. If there was an overwhelming - or even a general - concensus on what REALLY IS best, or what REALLY IS worst, then, by golly, I'd change. The fact is, I don't see that anywhere...and am not suprised by that. Why...because I believe any one of the many brands of oils are capable of carrying a vehicle to the end of its (inherent) life - as long as regular changes are performed, ergo: no concensus.
Getting back to GammaDriver's more technical comments....If I knew which oil(s) he felt were best, I'd enjoy doing more research on my own. The problem is....all the big names lead you to believe their's IS best, so you have to go elsewhere - like right here - for input.
I've gone full circle and found myself right back where I started - enjoying the fact that intelligent guys can have differing opinions on oils and filters, and bounce their ideas and opinions off each other.
Thanks Guys!!! Brian