Hi Folks,

This 4 speed toploader was butchered into my 1969 Mustang, which came with factory automatic, by a previous owner. I suspect it's a mid-70's model, with a shift-lock on the reverse shift arm, but otherwise, I have no idea of its history.

The problem I had with it initially was that it would pop out of first gear under load. I took off the top plate to find that one of the springs that applies pressure on the detente plugs on the shift rods was broken. So I replaced it with the correct Ford part, and the shifter stayed in first gear as it should. However, it is now more difficult to shift INTO first when the transmission is cold, and the car is moving. In fact, sometimes it's not enough to stop the car, but rather stop the car abruptly while trying to push the shifter into first. The jerk of the abrupt stop allows the shifter to go into first.

At first, I thought it might have been because I replaced the 75W90 gear lube with a much heavier grade (110W140), thinking that would provide better protection. However, I drained that and replaced it with the recommended 75W90, but the problem persists; it's still very hard to shift into first with the car moving, and transmission cold. The shifting always eases up as the transmission warms up, and once the it is warm, it shifts just fine.

Any idea what the real problem is? Do I need new syncros?

 

Being that it was coming out of gear under load all the time i would believe it may have damaged the syncro. If all is well otherwise there is likely no other problems. Have you tried double clutching into 1st? If that helps the issue that it's pretty much a guranteed synco issue.

 

Downshifting into first is always a little harder, but your description is a bit harder than my experience.

My T10, and first toploader popped out of 2nd on decel. Very bad....

Parts:

Remanufactured Toploaders

Toploader 4 Speed Transmissions

 

Yes, I tried double-clutching, but either I was really bad at it, or it didn't work.

What gets hurt when the gear pops out under load? My feeling is that the synchronizer sleeve and ring get excessively worn. I didn't let it happen too much before fixing it, so I hope I didn't damage it much. But the hard shifting into gear did not happen BEFORE my fix.

 

You should have bought a rebuild kit and replaced the blocker rings(what you're calling syncros) while it was down. Rebuild kits run about $150-175 for these transmissions.

 

Yes, I had the same hindsight. But when I got into it, I had already checked the manuals that led me to the detente spring. The broken spring that I found kind of confirmed the original suspicion, so that's all I replaced. I had no troubles shifting into 1st gear before, so I suspected nothing else.

I've had that thing out of the car a couple times since. It's kind of an annoyance, the worst being to drain the lube, but not impossible. So maybe after the current round of other tasks is done, I'll get into it again.

Are the parts the same for all the transmissions? IE, if I look for a toploader rebuild kit, how many different versions are there? Are there any special tools needed to take apart the gear clusters?

 

You can Id what you've got via the tag affixed to the passenger side of the main case' Go to David Kee Toploader Transmissions, Inc. this is David Kee's site and he's got a Toploader ID tag chart there. All you need to rebuild one is a bearing puller for the tailshaft bearing and a good pair of snap ring pliers (the flat tipped kind) If you've got the kind they sell at all the parts houses, forget those and invest in a better pair from Snap On or the other professional tool vendors. You will also need a fishing magnet that fits into the detent shaft hole to fish the detents out & reinstall them. No other tools needed other than a hammer, screw drivers and a few punches. David Kee's kits come with detailed pictured instructions. I just finished rebuilding one for my 77 Comet, really simple transmissions to rebuild.

 

When I changed my '65 over, I had the trans in and out 9 times in a year due to pop-out problems with the T10, and then the first toploader I bought, plus iirc, I started with a clutch job on the three speed.... Frustrating, ain't it?

 

Thanks all. I'll check out David Kee, but later, when I have the current project buttoned up.

 

Dragging out an old thread, I'm finally getting around to addressing the problems of my toploader. The primary motivation now is that it's leaking badly enough that I can't ignore it anymore.

First, the number cast to the side of the top edge: C8AR 7008 D W1

So it's a lot older than I thought.

It's leaking from the 3-4 shift shaft or "cam" on the side, so its O-ring needs to be replaced. I'm guessing the other 2 will soon follow, so when I get into it, they will have to go as well.

It's also leaking from somewhere on the front face. Since I sealed the bearing retainer, the leak does not appear to be from that. So I'm guessing it's from one of the case plugs. Do these plugs just knock out from the inside? Is there some kind of sealant that should be applied to these plugs when I re-install them?

Also, while replacing the pilot bushing with a bearing, the bushing has a much larger hole than the nose of the input shaft, .75" vs .669". So for however long the previous owner had been abusing it, it had no front support for the input shaft. If I grab the nose, I can wobble it about 1/16". Can this be fixed by the new input bearing that come with the typical rebuild kit?

I'm sure I'll have more questions as I get deeper into this as this is my first transmission rebuild, so any guidance will be greatly appreciated.

 

That overly large pilot bushing has caused your leak in the front. There's a shaft seal inside the bearing retainer. But leaving it (the input shaft) unsupported all that time will have worn the gear that's part of the input shaft (4th gear) so you may need to replace it. The plugs press in as you suspected, they should go in with sealer when you replace them. There's always free play in the input shaft without the pilot bearing supporting it. The input bearing is a ball roller bearing, so it does not limit the freeplay with the shaft out of the pilot bearing. The case casting numbers don't indicate what year it is, the ID tag riveted to the case (passenger side in front) tells you what year and application it was from. All the Toploader cases from 68-on have those numbers. Get the ID tag numbers and go to David Kee's website and you can look up what your transmission was for and what years it was produced. It'll also tell you if it's a close or wide ratio unit. And before reinstalling it, get the correct pilot bearing/bushing for it. That one in there is either worn or could be a big input bushing (I don't know off hand what the diameter of the big input snouts were)

 

I'm afraid there was no ID tag when I got the car, so my only clue to its origin is the pivot ball on the reverse shift arm that must activate a lockout mechanism for I'm guessing the ignition key. But the shifter mount is right at the end of the tail housing, so it fits into a Mustang.

The last time I had this thing out, I replaced the shaft seal in the front bearing retainer. If it was leaking, I would expect it to have SOME traces of gear lube on it, but it just has the grease I put on it from the last time I installed it.

I just cleaned off the case today, and pulled the top cover to look at the gears. I didn't seen any chipped teeth, but it's not obvious to me if those teeth are worn.

One thing I did notice is when I move the 1-2 shift lever, the gear pack visibly moves fore and aft a little, like there is some thrust gap.

Also, the 3-4 detente spring is broken as well, so the 3-4 gear positions have no resistance to sliding into neutral.

So I found another source for the rebuild kit from Dan Williams, who seems to offer the same parts for the same price as David Kee. Is one source better than the other?

 

Lots of guys like Dan, I've never done business with him. I have done 3 deals with Kee, he's a great guy.. I sold two Toploaders to him 13 years ago, I live in Louisiana, he's in San Antonio Tx. He drove 430 miles to my house to pick them up. One was a long tail Galaxie unit, he needed it to get the mainshaft out of to send to a customer in England. That's how dedicated he is. It's rare to see chipped teeth in one, you won't notice wear unless you compare it to a new gear. Or the transmission starts whining. If it's not whining, leave it be. You also don't want to mix old gears with new ones, you will get whining then.(or in mixing gears from several transmissions, as me how I know) As you can see inside it, all the gears are paired with the ones on the countershaft. The counters gears are all in one piece, so if you change that without changing the rest, you get whining. The gears all wear together in service. The mainshaft gears have thrust washers between them somewhere (I don't recall exactly where, been three years since I went into one) getting a schematic will show you where. Not sure about Dan Williams, but Kee includes detailed instructions on disassembly and assembly. These are truly do it yourself jobs, they're not complicated.

 

I don't recall hearing whining from the transmission, but then, the car is really noisy, so I could have missed it.

Looks like I'll be ordering the rebuild kit from David Kee.

 

Got the thing disassembled (mostly) last night with a couple of minor snags. The reverse shift rail had a burr on it from the detente plug, which prevented it from being pulled out the back. I had to grind it down in the case. I also put a nick in the shoulder of a snap ring groove which made it difficult for the 3rd gear to slide off, so I had to carefully file it down. My old snap ring pliers were not working so well, so I'll have to get a new one so I don't do anymore damage, and so I can re-assemble everything later.

I'm wondering if I should have just let it be, now that I know first hand what would be involved in putting it back together. The leak from the front of the case was from the plug for the 3-4 rail. Someone had messed with it before, and it had a crack in it. If I had known that was the cause of that leak, I could have just replaced it. I would have left the seepage in the 3-4 shift shaft. But this is a learning experience. My new parts should arrive in a couple days from David Kee, and I can start assembly next weekend.