Maybe one of us went askew on the details here - it could be me. Many here are looking at the jet fuel because we have diesels with tanks over 35 gallons (like me). I see a few readers with 7.3L diesels and/or Superduties. Diesel prices are higher than premium fuel, so this topic would garner a lot of interest with us.

That being said, I had a voice in the back of my skull saying "It can't be that easy or it would be common." and you have given gravity to that voice. These are all good things to know, thank you for jumping in there.

 

I agree that safety precautions is paramount any time you deal with a fuel source, and should be taken very seriously, but as for the legalities I would have to say there is something wrong there...I have a hard time believing that storing >30 gallon quantities of any combustible liquid is illegal. Here is my logic: I can go to any retail farm store and purchase a 50 gallon container for diesel storage in the back of a pickup, with a pump. Why is in not illegal to purchase such containers? Also, my Dad's 2003 Dodge Ram 3500 has a 50 gallon Titan Diesel fuel tank, which he fills, along with the 40 gallon gasoline storage tank mounted to the underside of his 2011 Toy hauler, and the 30 gallons of propane, for a trip down the highway. so based on that notion, I could turn him and the other 2000 toy haulers I see cruising down the freeway on a major holiday in to the feds?? Something doesn't compute, here...

Oh, and better call up them feds and have them go down to the local drag strip and haul all them folks away too! I am there on a regular basis in the summer, and on a busy weekend, I can count over 200 trailers, including my own, that have at least 1 55gallon drum of 102 octane VP race gas sitting in or near their trailer. and I don't think there is ANY governing body more strict about safety than the NHRA. and VP is nasty stuff...

And back on topic, I walk in to our local FBO with 6 cans for JetA, and AvGas (100LL, which I use in my ATV) just LAST WEEKEND, of which the Airport official had to assist me in unlocking the pump, and I filled all 6 cans, with his assistance. Not one word was said. Of course, I am not allowed to have my vehicle at the pump, because that IS illegal, per FAA regs. and even then that's not a safety thing, its because 100LL is not legal for street use, as it is not taxed and EPA rated. Also, you are not allowed to put Avgas in Metal containers (duh). As far as i was aware, as long as you are transporting the fuel in a container rated for the type of liquid you are hauling you are ok. i.e. do not store gasoline in a diesel storage tank. it is not vented properly, among other things.

Beechkid, could you post a link to the actual verbage from the CERCLA and IFC as I searched it and could not find the articles you were referring to...may be a good resource for this topic.

here is an article I found as it pertains to the CERCLA and Petroleum Fuels:
http://www.andrewskurth.com/assets/h...0Exclusion.pdf

It may seem like it, but I am really not trying to start an argument here, I am just merely pointing out that there needs to be some real research done, here. CHECK YOUR LOCAL LAWS for sure! One thing you can always count on though...if something is saving you money, then the govn't is not getting their cut and its probably illegal. Also, NEVER SACRIFICE SAFETY FOR SAVINGS.

But as for the OP....If you want to use Jet A in your diesel engine, it can usually be purchased from a viable source for much cheaper than pump diesel, and it will suppliment the cost. Never mix it in cans, simply add it to your tank, and don't run it straight. Also, don't run it in your gas cars, or your brand new Diesel truck (warranty issues). I would consider it a Inexpensive Diesel Suppliment, rather than a CHEAP alternative. I have used it in my diesel engines for years, and I can attest to its viability.

oh, and I still get my drums filled at my FBO. and last time i was there I asked about the legalities, and the airport official told me as long as they do not "sell" the waste fuel and i am not a "business", they are merely "disposing" of the fuel in a environmentally conscious way, as I am "recycling" it.

I humbly step off my soapbox now.

 

To make it simple......

International fire code (which is adopted by all states and this section is mandated that all local juridictions adopt & enforce)

4502.6.5 "Requires a permit for the storage, use, handling and dispensing in excess of 5 gallons"
Section 7902.5.7....."Indoor Storage of flammable quiquids shall not exceed those quantities set forth in Table 7902.5-A"

Article 80, Storage of flammable & combustible liquids......."amounts of 30 gallons or more.......a approved secondary containment system shall be provided"

To access the specific docs is a paid subcription service, but, if you call your local fire department and county health departments (hazardous Materials Unit), they can verify everything I have stated.

And back on topic, I walk in to our local FBO with 6 cans for JetA, and AvGas (100LL, which I use in my ATV) just LAST WEEKEND, of which the Airport official had to assist me in unlocking the pump, and I filled all 6 cans, with his assistance. Not one word was said.

And there are Drs. who perfom plastic surgery inhotel rooms as well, but that's illegal too.......

as a matter of fact, it is a felony in every state and including FAA regs and EPA permits (you can ask the airport staff to show you not just the permit, but the "written conditions of use language issued by the EPA, fire and health authorites"..............I guarantee it says for aircraft use only and specifically has a line in it that "Prohibits dispensing for any other use"

Because of the way the enforcement books are printed, it is based upon occupancy use, it would take, many, many pages of postings to show each and every regulation, as an example, for a basic gas station, there are well over a dozen different sections/chapters that covers just the "office area", all the way from "how close a dispensing hose may extend to the front door" to "Not obstructing the view of the attendant of any of the dispensing (pump) units"...ie, can't hang posters in the window that can block the Cashiers view.....
Even the fuel records are to be audited, and must be within 10% as compared to what was delivered and what was dispensed (10% is standard contraction/expansion of liquids cause by temperature differences)...even a 1% discrepancy requires notification to authroity who issues permit for the underground storage tank....which can be the local fire dept, county health dept, etc......just depends on the local jurisdiction of who wanted the permit program.

 

Thanks for the interesting information regarding the differents oils that can be used in diesel engines. Subscribing...

 

I happen to have the IFC book, and I cannot find the items you are referencing. Chapter 27, table 2703.1.1 is the table of allowable quantities, so I am not quite sure where you are getting chapter 45. But this will help answer my own question about Fuel tanks. as quoted from Table 2703.1.1:
"The following shall not be included in determining the maximum allowable quantities:
1. Liquid or gaseous fuel in fuel tanks on vehicles.
2. Liquid or gaseous fuel in fuel tanks on motorized equipment operated in accordance with this code.
3. Gaseous fuels in piping systems and fixed appliances regulated by the International Fuel Gas Code.
4. Liquid fuels in piping systems and fixed appliances, regulated by the International Mechanical Code"

I am not going to argue the point but just say this to all who's reading. TALK TO YOUR LOCAL FIRE MARSHAL FOR ADVICE ON WHAT YOU CAN AND CANNOT DO Relating to Fuel and Fuel storage, as well as transporting.

really... how mature...I was merely pointing out the fact that I was not sneaking around. I legitimately walked into a Fueling station and got fuel in containers, while under supervision by certified Airport personnel, and survelience cameras, paid with my mastercard, and walked out. Mind you, this was a small state airport strip, not freakin LAX. That was my point.

This is true, and you are correct. I never said I did everything by the book. The "don't ask, don't tell" policy applies here. there is no way for the FBO to legally determine that I am NOT using the fuel for aircraft. I am simply hand-carrying a can to him to fill. for all he knows, I have a plane in a hangar somewhere. My methods are legal, the use thereof may not be. And don't go all righteous on me, because I seriously doubt you have never ever done anything wrong...videos you watch online, that movie you borrowed from your friend...borrowing your neighbors lawnmower, all Copyright enfringement. Illegal. that is not the point here.


I apologize for the hijack, OP. we could go back and forth all day on this, Noob vs Guru. I will unsubscribe from this thread, as my input has gone from value-added to argumenative. no more retorts from me. Keep on Truckin! Cheers.

 

It was an informative thread.

FTE posting guideline custom probably prohibits taking it into details which may verge on political opinion, but in a Politically Correct world it's easy to fill in the blanks.

 

Subscribed

 

[QUOTE=Super79CS;11439712]I happen to have the IFC book, and I cannot find the items you are referencing. Chapter 27, table 2703.1.1 is the table of allowable quantities, so I am not quite sure where you are getting chapter 45. But this will help answer my own question about Fuel tanks. as quoted from Table 2703.1.1:
"The following shall not be included in determining the maximum allowable quantities:
1. Liquid or gaseous fuel in fuel tanks on vehicles.
2. Liquid or gaseous fuel in fuel tanks on motorized equipment operated in accordance with this code.
3. Gaseous fuels in piping systems and fixed appliances regulated by the International Fuel Gas Code.
4. Liquid fuels in piping systems and fixed appliances, regulated by the International Mechanical Code"

I am not going to argue the point but just say this to all who's reading. TALK TO YOUR LOCAL FIRE MARSHAL FOR ADVICE ON WHAT YOU CAN AND CANNOT DO Relating to Fuel and Fuel storage, as well as transporting.

With regards to the motorized vehicles...correct, it is regulated by Code of Federal regulations part 49..enforcement is strictly by law enforcement officers (hazardous materials) and eacxh state has stipulations which cover (as required by CFR49) putting lets say ag deisel fuel in a street driven vehicle..........can you say, go to jail & loose the vehicle, but, if a vehicle transporting these same products was involved in an accident, posing a potential leak...it now is classified as a hazardous waste (not a material) and is now under the authority of Fire or County health department officials
really...

I was merely pointing out the fact that I was not sneaking around. I legitimately walked into a Fueling station and got fuel in containers, while under supervision by certified Airport personnel, and survelience cameras, paid with my mastercard, and walked out. Mind you, this was a small state airport strip, not freakin LAX. That was my point.

I'm not implying you are, but under the Federal Hazadous Substance Act (which is now referenced in both RCRA & CERCLA), anyone who sees any improper use or dispensing can call the 800 # for WeTip (I don't remember the whole number....and they get 10% for whatever fines are assessed. In california, the average fine is $1 million and includes all fees, permits, investigation costs (yes an hourly rate for every law enforcement person, fire fighter, inspector, investigator, health offical, etc.) and clean-up, transportation, disposal and state/federal permits required for that, plus all the fed/osha or state osha fines.....minimum base is $7,500.

With regards to the small municipal airports........yes, they are directly regulated by the FAA who has adopted and required in writing (of which the airport manager must sign & certify compliance to) all these regs plus more.....as an example, even if you are a pest control or weed control operator (ya know, the guys with the spray rigs mounted on a truck...........) they must have local & state permits to even drive their vehicle (even a 1/2 truck) onto the airport property.....a whole stack of permits is required including EPA certification...not just for the truck & operator, but for the facility (airport) as well....if they are going to be re-supplying the truck on site.....



This is true, and you are correct. I never said I did everything by the book. The "don't ask, don't tell" policy applies here. there is no way for the FBO to legally determine that I am NOT using the fuel for aircraft.

Ahh but there is...........through multiple means and requirements, but I won't go into the details because it is just tooo long.....
back in the 70's I too use to buy AvGas at redlands municipal Airport...5 gallon can.......... but by the time the 80's rolled around, it was all over but the shouten'

If someone drops a dime on you, at minum, you will loose your vehicle........I don't want to se that happen to anyone..........
Your state air resouces board (every state has one and does this), is required to map air polution, and uses lasers (ground & air) and GIS to ID operations..........including spot checks & surveys..........I personally know a gent in Central Calif (rural) who lost his 1934 coupe, just because of running jet fuel in it- the surveyors, were private contractors hired by the state.....and every state does this.

 

I want to clarify, with regards to "Acceptable Containers", for those who might think it is ok to use a gasoline can for jet fuel, it can get you into real trouble,the container for which you are filling must not only be rated for the type of fuel you are putting in but must also be of an "Approved" type.....what this means, is both the container mfg 7 the jet fuel mfg must both agree that this container is acceptable for use with this product, and it is noted & refernced within national standards boards references....
NFPA Inspection manual, pages 151-154; International Fire Code (Standards refernce) Section 79.201-205; Code of federal Regulations, Chapter 1, Title 49 & NFPA standard 30, chapter 4-2 (aka National Fire Codes).

just because a Fire Marshal or Fire Inspector may tell you its ok, remember, any environmental officer, health offical, Ag officer, Fish & game officer , Air Resouces, Water resouces staff, has full enforcement authority...even if your local, county or even state has turned a blinds eye.

agian, I say this to keep someone from loosing their vehicle, and $

 

Also, just so everyone knows, Methane is a flammable gas, and as such the release of Flammable gas into the atmosphere in any quantity is illegal, and is subject to fines and punishment.

So that means if you fart and they catch you, the feds can come haul your stinky a$$ to jail. Just a word of caution. you think I'm kidding?

I know at least one of you just cracked a smile...

"There are more laws telling us what not to do then there are things to do..." - Robert A. Heinlein


I know, us young pup know-it-alls are just full of **** n vinegar...I know I said I was done, but just couldn't resist.

 

Toooo much government...... Tooooooo little common sense!

 

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

I'll admit it, I cracked a smile at the methane joke.

 

Now don't laugh toooo hard but, a vet in the mid-west wanted to prove to a farmer 9true story) that cows when they fart, they produce methane gas....so (this was actually written up in one of the journals) ....the vet & farmer stood by a cow who had just finished eating, waited a few minutes and well, the cow started farting.......properly statged with a lit butane lighter in hand (the vet) , when the cow farted next, there was one hell of a flame!.....it burned the vet's arm, the cows butt, lit some hay on fire which burn down the barn.....................
yup, the vet was charged and convicted of animal cruelty and burning of the barn!

No kidding, true story about 15 years ago!

 

H everyone i have a couple diesel trucks but my main question is can i and would it be safe to run jet A1 in my 2000 ken worth t800 with a cummins ism 450 motor and can i run it legally??

Thanks for any help