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Is the 120r worth it

 
  #1  
Old 10-25-2007, 03:51 PM
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Is the 120r worth it

I have, yet another, newbie question. Iíll start by saying thanks to all you guys and gals for this outstanding site. Iíve read tons of great info, R&D, suggestions and the like. Iíve built/owned hot rods and classics for some time, but have never had the pleasure of owning a diesel until now.

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Iíve got a í00 F250 7.3 PSD(8/26/99) with A/T, 4.11 gears and 35Ē tires. Iíve already completed the Kwik 6637, CCV, foil delete and MKO 5Ē exhaust mods. I have gauges on the way that include the usual triple set up: pyro, boost and trans temp. The next purchase is a DP Tuner, then BTS VB. Pretty sure Iím going to call Diane and/or Jody to talk about programming, but my question is; what do I need to do to take advantage of the 120r program? It will depend on whether I get it or not. Iíve read that several guys havenít noticed much SOTP diff. or change in time slips. 40hp does quite a bit for a gasser, but I know itís different for a 7400lb beast. Most that posted little change had fuel mods such as reg. return/CCK, SS HPX, Hutch & Harpoon, pre-pump filter, lift pump, etc. My goal is to put down 350-400HP/ at any given TQ. However, if this takes some crazy $$$ and mods then Iíll be happy with what I can get and the 80econ.

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Thanks Ė Potter
 
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Old 10-25-2007, 04:12 PM
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what do I need to do to take advantage of the 120r program? It will depend on whether I get it or not. Iíve read that several guys havenít noticed much SOTP diff. or change in time slips.
The actual difference in power between say the 80 econo tune and the 120 race tune will be largely affected by your HPOP. A stronger HPOP that can flow more oil will help the additional fuel in the 120 race tune to atomize better and give you more power. Most trucks will gain some additional power in the 120 vs the 80, but a few people have seen almost no gain due to extremely weak HPOP's. It's not fault of the tuning, it's just the very broad manufacturing specs of these pumps.

My goal is to put down 350-400HP/ at any given TQ. However, if this takes some crazy $$$ and mods then Iíll be happy with what I can get and the 80econ.
Around 350 HP is achievable with the stock injectors. You will need big oil to hit that mark. With just a chip, you'll see 295-315hp, add big oil and tuning to take advantage of it, and now you're 340-360hp. If you want to hit 400, you'll need injectors. With either big oil or new injectors, the cost for each upgrade is around $2000. Plus with the added fuel, you'll need a new turbo. The stock turbo won't handle those power levels for long.
 
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Old 10-25-2007, 04:13 PM
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Potter,

120R and the mods you have should put you around 300-325 HP depending on the health of your HPOP.
 
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Old 10-25-2007, 04:16 PM
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Hey, welcome to FTE. Looks like you been reading a while, congrats on finally joining and posting

350hp is feasable with stock injectors, it's basically where i am at. However, a cheaper method would to purchase stage one reman injectors for $625, and get a larger exhaust housing, and different compressor housing to support it.

Other than what you have now, you would want a complete fuel system to compliment the other mods. I have Terminator HPOS on my truck, and with my live tuning (i have basically everything you can do on stock injectors) im right around 350hp.

If i were you wanting to shoot for 350, i would do this

Fuel system ~700
Stage one single injectors $625
ATS compressor housing $400
1.0 exhaust housing, EBPV delete $400ish
If you have the funds right now, ready to get all the stuff, i'd save up and do the install on everything at one time, and then to top it off get the chip from DP Tuner made for the stage one injectors.
 
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Old 10-25-2007, 04:23 PM
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From what I've read from others' posts, the reason the 80E & 120R aren't that different is that Jody has been tweaking the 80E so it's more like a 100HP tune. I notice a difference, more with how the tranny shifts than anything else. If you are getting the BTS VB, tell Diane/Jody when you order -- they'll set it up for the VB. Also tell BTS that you have the DP Tune for their VB as well...

Regarding the other mods, DEFINITELY get the in-tanks done!! Big difference for me. I also recommend the CCK & HPX as well. Oh, and with the DP, you'll need the ITP OBA as well. It keeps the CEL from coming one and the truck from de-fueling when you start boosting over 22psi. You don't want to go over 25 anyway, but at least the PITA light won't come on unless you get the HPOP low pressure code like most of us do (at least those of us without big oil!!). 350-400 RWHP will most likely require injectors, so be prepared for that. I'm in the beginning stages of doing injectors, but nothing radical -- Stage 1 Single Shots. I'm going that route for two reasons -- one is you can get 'em cheap, and two they don't require as much oil as stock injectors, so you get a bonus there. Down-side is that you MUST have tuning to use them. Jody can take care of that part, though. I think guys without injectors are maxing out around 300-320 RWHP, so keep that in mind. I think you can hit 350 or so RWHP with SS Stage 1s and most of the supporting mods already mentioned. Maybe someone else will chime in, but that's my understanding...
 
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Old 10-25-2007, 04:24 PM
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Kris,

where can you find the stage 1's for 625?
 
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Old 10-25-2007, 04:24 PM
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Well, there you go -- Kris is here to save the day...
 
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Old 10-25-2007, 04:29 PM
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Old 10-25-2007, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by strokin_it7.3
LMAO -- happens sometimes when I'm at work. It sux when that stuff gets in the way of my freedom of PMS expression...
 
  #10  
Old 10-25-2007, 07:53 PM
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Thanks Curtis, bdrummonds, Kris and Joe. Big oil looks out of range for now. Besides, I need to get the supporting mods finished first. Like my other toys, the breathing upgrades should be complete unless I missed something. I'd like to start upgrading/updating the fuel system to support future mods. I'm sure I'm like a lot of you on here that like to do things yourself. The HPX seems to be as easy as fabbing breaklines; although I'm not sure what size the ports on the heads are. The CCK looks simple enough, but what kind of hose is used, 3/8 fuel injection line? What about shimming the FPR? How important is this and should I even mess with it?

Kris - Where is the ~700 coming from? CCK, ITP Prepump kit, HPX, I'm sure I'm missing something? Also, I could use a little turbo 101 on the turbo upgrades. I thought the ATS housing was mainly used to get rid of surge? How does the 1.0 exhaust housing help? EBPV (exhaust back-pressure valve?)?

Joe - thanks for the heads up on the over boost mod. It looks like my air compressor regulator. Is that basically what it is?

One more thing I just thought of? When will the tranny become the weakest link?

Again, thanks for the help!
 
  #11  
Old 10-25-2007, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by TN_F250

One more thing I just thought of? When will the tranny become the weakest link?

Again, thanks for the help!
Maybe never, maybe tomorrow without any mods. I am planning on running my diode equipped until it pukes.

Joe has reiterated some good advice that Kris gave. To answer your question, I do not have what it takes to take advantage of my 120 race as evidenced at the strip. Since I can make a huge cloud of smoke in the 120 and go no faster than the 80e, I think I need to clean that smoke up and that points to a turbo. If I got injectors, I am thinking I would make a bigger cloud.

I could be wrong but know that I am right that I do not have new turbo money just laying around right now.
 
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Old 10-25-2007, 08:20 PM
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The CCK will be fine for a tuner and stock injectors, however IMHO if you are going to be going big with the fuel and want to have them fully supported, i would recommend a Regulated Return style kit. Normally they are $450ish or around there. Then I'd do the Hutch/harpoon mod, with the pre pump filter, and a lift pump. That together will support 400hp easily and the lift pump will take the suction load off of the pump..

Turbo, here goes. The stock turbo is a .84 A/R , which means Area Ratio. Without explaining it too much, the smaller the number, the faster it is to spool up, however suffer on top end. Think of it as the turbo spools up fast, however there is a certain point where the turbo becomes a major restriction in the exhaust, and instead of producing more boost, it just jacks up the pressure between the engine and the turbo (called "drive pressure"). This is harmful as it just acts like a cork, plus it also increases the temperatures. The cure is to put a "larger" exhaust housing (larger number, however the size stays the same). this acts like less of a restriction, but the tradeoff is slower spooling time. However with more fuel, there isnt a noticeable difference. Once you cure surge somehow, with a new wheel or a new housing, then upgrade the exhaust side to accomodate which level of power you have. EBPV is the exhaust pressure valve. Most people delete it, simply because it's not needed. All you need is the pedestal, and the turbine outlet. Check ebay, i was on there last night and i saw a EBPV delete kit there. Good luck. Let me know if you need anything more explained.
 
  #13  
Old 10-25-2007, 09:15 PM
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I'm just curious to see if I'm on the right track. The reason some people can't take full advantage of the 120R is because they have weak HPOPs, right? But the Stage 1 SS's use less oil. So with S1SS's and the right tuning, you should be able to produce the most power without going to Big Oil?

Originally Posted by Izzy351
From what I've read from others' posts, the reason the 80E & 120R aren't that different is that Jody has been tweaking the 80E so it's more like a 100HP tune. I notice a difference, more with how the tranny shifts than anything else. If you are getting the BTS VB, tell Diane/Jody when you order -- they'll set it up for the VB. Also tell BTS that you have the DP Tune for their VB as well...

Regarding the other mods, DEFINITELY get the in-tanks done!! Big difference for me. I also recommend the CCK & HPX as well. Oh, and with the DP, you'll need the ITP OBA as well. It keeps the CEL from coming one and the truck from de-fueling when you start boosting over 22psi. You don't want to go over 25 anyway, but at least the PITA light won't come on unless you get the HPOP low pressure code like most of us do (at least those of us without big oil!!). 350-400 RWHP will most likely require injectors, so be prepared for that. I'm in the beginning stages of doing injectors, but nothing radical -- Stage 1 Single Shots. I'm going that route for two reasons -- one is you can get 'em cheap, and two they don't require as much oil as stock injectors, so you get a bonus there. Down-side is that you MUST have tuning to use them. Jody can take care of that part, though. I think guys without injectors are maxing out around 300-320 RWHP, so keep that in mind. I think you can hit 350 or so RWHP with SS Stage 1s and most of the supporting mods already mentioned. Maybe someone else will chime in, but that's my understanding...
 

Last edited by santacruzf250; 10-25-2007 at 09:16 PM. Reason: adding text
  #14  
Old 10-25-2007, 09:22 PM
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Thats correct. Im sure if you went from a very weak pump, to big oil on stock injectors, it would be equivalent to stage one injectors.
 
  #15  
Old 10-25-2007, 09:28 PM
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How much are factory HPOP replacements?
 

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