Econoline Body R&R Questions

I have a 351W, 4 speed stick [3 speed Overdrive] Long Wheel Base E-150, Cargo Van with a sliding door.
Apparently this drive train was available by order only.
Has anyone else seen one like this?
[If this was a garden variety 351W, C6, I would not bother, but this is the only 4 speed econoline van I have ever seen, and is just unkillable.]

To repair a half a million miles of body damage...
[including recently being hit by a suburban]
I am arranging for a body shop to install a used body on my 78’s frame and am looking for someone to answer the “been there done that” questions.

While I have been told by the ford dealer that the sheet metal is the same from 76 - 91. Is there any differences in the sheet metal that make a particular year a pain?

It seems that I can find 6 cylinder standard transmission vans, or dual fuel tanks, but not both. Am I correct that a dual tank, automatic van body would easier to install, than a standard van, with one tank?

What are the most rust resistant years?
[I know that 76-78 are very prone to rust and corrosion, but which had the best galvanic treatment]

I’ve helped do the pickup cab swap. but then four men can lift a cab easily. Is there any one out there who has done a van body swap [regardless of make]?
If so, can you tell me the various pitfalls, that you ran into and how you lifted the body?
[floor hoist lifting the body, vs dropping the frame, with the body suspended]

Many Thanks
David

 

Buy one from the southwest or Colorado, that helps avoid rust issues. My '85 is surprisingly rust free.

 

I very nearly bought 2 different 4 spd stick mid 80's Econolines. One was a short wheel base model.

IMO the body swap you have in mind would be an awfull lot of work for a minimum of return. For the cost in labor you could no doubt buy another/better van. Unless you found another stick shift body you'd still need to convert. It would be dramatically easier to just install your drivetrain into an existing rust free van, if you really wanted to keep a drivetrain with "half a million miles" on it. That 30 y o frame had better be perfect in every way.

I'd save my dreams of body swapping for low mileage drivetrains out of wrecks.

 

I'll post one more comment on this.

I looked at the body swap idea when I first started shopping for a 4x4 van. There are plenty of rusted out East Coast 4x4's that are dirt cheap. I figured buy one, buy a donor van and swap the bodies. I couldn't find info, couldn't find a shade tree mechanic that was interested in the job, and finally decided it wasn't cost effective.

If you have a very large garage with a high ceiling it should be possible to do at home. But you're still going to have to buy a solid donor vehicle and either ship or drive it to you to do this job. I suppose you disconnect all the body to frame mounts, and use jacks and 4x4 to slow raise the body up, disconnecting everything that passes through the firewall and any other wires and what not you see. Once it's clear of the frame wheel out the old chassis and in the new. Much easier said then done.

Why not just swap the engine/tranny? That might be an easier job with much more info?

 

Thanks for your replies.
Having worked as an import wrench and in sports car restoration, I understand that everything is much harder than it seems.

Once I put a 4 cyl water cooled Hemi in a 73 VW camper van. Our last auto project was getting a locking diff put in our 2 wheel drive vanagon campers transaxle for $1400.

If I was not renovating our home, I would fix the E-150 myself. Having “remodeled our 5.5 foot tall basement” into a 10.5 foot tall four car garage, we will have the space, when portland approves the work of the structural subcontractor.

First off THE VAN WORKS PROPERLY, except for:
body issues,
missing AC,
the cracked Walker muffler that will get replaced under warrantee, and a noise that 2nd syncro occasionally makes when downshifting.
[While the gearbox has been doing this for about 150k, I will probably need to replace it eventually. DOES ANYONE HAVE A GOOD USED 3 SPEED OVERDRIVE?]

I have been looking at used ford vans from 76-91 and have not driven one that works as well as mine. Which is a bit weird since two had less than 100k. Mine passed it’s last mechanical inspection except for the cracked muffler. Passed DEQ [smog] two months ago.
--------------------------------
By the way,
This is not a 302 or 351W installed in a six cylinder 4 speed van, or a standard put into an automatic body.

It is a....
SPECIAL ORDER ONLY VEHICLE:
And so there are probably none E-150s left of this type.
[In 1993, I saw the bent, and stripped remains of one in a bone yard, I have not seen one in person or for sale since then and I have looked.]
--------------------------------
It is a factory:
351W 2B,
3 speed overdrive
[4 speed stick with a mechanical clutch linkage]
(according for ford, the same sheet metal as the 351W C6 van, but with two holes for the clutch linkage and shifter)

with Dual Tanks
(which I have been told that none of the 6 cylinders had factory dual tanks)

and full gauges

[This version did not sell well since ford failed to promote it. So about one in a thousand long wheel base 77-78 E-150 were made this way. Which is ironic since it is the best year with the best V8 and manual trans.
(the engine has been rebuilt once, the trans is original and I broke one 9 inch rear end)]

It is the last year to predate the catalytic converter and air pump!
[so to make its engine run, I have to power the choke heater, electronic ignition and internally regulated alternator, so any wiring harness and body combo will work.]

Given a choice between spending ten grand on a newer van or about three on the one I have, I’ll still take the 78. I use it as a work van and it is still reliable.
--------------------------------
Fixing it:
Leaves me with the choices of:
using an early six cylinder 3 or 4-speed that had a mechanical clutch linkage and add a chunk of body with filler for the auxiliary tank

or

Using a 351W body with dual, tanks and knocking out the two holes and use my steering column and petal assembly.
--------------------------------
Body Damage:

Windshield Frame Destroyed at top due to a poor instal.

Other drivers have hit all four sides.
[everything from rear and one front corner hit by drunk drivers, to the drivers side and front hit by angry member of the church next store, because I would not give them half of my yard or sell them the house and everything for half of mortgage.]

Various rust patches.
[floor, roof, etc.]

While the frame and mechanical bits are good this van clearly has been used.
--------------------------------
State of Oregon,
I can get an “assembled vehicle title” assigning the additional vin. but keeping the vin of the frame.
--------------------------------
Or I can save the bits with the numbers and “use the new body for “repairing” the old one”, of course all the vin plates are in good order on my 78.
--------------------------------
If I want to fix it, it’s going to take a bit of labor, probably at least two grand worth.
[the ford dealer said about four grand, a friend of a friends body shop half that]

Given that the body on my van looks a bit like it had been thru World War 3, the idea of making it look clean again is simply out of the question.
--------------------------------
Weird design changes:
If I was to use a body with a hydraulic clutch, I would have some major headaches since my van predates that version. Also the clutch master cylinders come loose from the firewalls.

Ford has stated that the all LWB 76-91 automatic vans have the same body as mine, but without the holes in the knock outs.
[yes that means that a newer automatic body is easier to use than a newer standard trans body?!?!]
--------------------------------
Is there a good online reference with the locations of all the VINs?
thanks,
David

PS
Randy,
The reason that no one wants to swap bodies or convert to the 4 wheel drive models is liability. Pathfinder and Quigly have multi million dollar insurance polices, your local garage does not.

You probably could have had a local garage make a broken rust free and a rusty truck or van into one, netting a cheap 4 wheel drive van, except for the two grand or so in labor.

Club Wagon,
six cylinder 3 and 4 speed vans were available until 89, most were fleet sales and short wheel base. I believe that 78 was the last year for a 351W with a standard for the E-150.

 

Sorry, I'm not moved by your conviction that your van is such a rare item.

The project still sounds like a nightmare to me. Far to much money & effort for much to small of a return. You'd still be better off modifying a rust free sound van, if you have to have your 351 on a 4 spd live on. These Frankenstein projects are better when somebody is hiring you to do them, paying the bills & living with the headaches. Sure these things can be done, but why bother?

IMO the day after you finish beating your head against the wall will be the day you find another "SPECIAL ORDER ONLY VEHICLE" just like it, begging for a new owner.

 

What a minute...
While I haven't found a house or auto project that I have failed to finish...
I have hoping to find out if there were any "unless" or "but iff's" to mitchel's "any 76-91 automatic body" will work.
I have already found an autobody shop to do the install as long as I provide the engine wiring harness.
He will let me replace any thing that is wonky like brake lines while the body is off.
He did a fine job on a fiends 78 short wheel base E-150.
I have already discovered that there are almost no 351W 4speeds left since there were only a handful made.
This means transplanting my parts into another similar van is impossible.
What I have is an almost perfect frame and mechanical bits.

If a catholic priest in patagonia can drive a studibaker for over a million miles, it does not suprise me that I still have a reliable van after half that, since the stuibaker never saw a paved road.

I did not expect the replys that I got.
What I wanted to avoid was any suprises, like the vans made in a particular factory were different, etc.

I was not expecting "if I can't do it, you must not know what you are doing doda"
I expect to spend more bread than the average 78 E-150 sells for on E-bay.
I have found a locking 9 inch rear end, a good cargo body on an 89 E-150, and if I find a good 3 speed overdrive, I will replace the trans. and have the drive shaft balanced too.

I will be driving this van up and down hills to the lumber yard and Lowes until I have completed rewiring, replumbing and restoring a house made in 1912.
If it costs me $3000 grand to fix the van, and it continues to work like my timex watch, I will be happy.
The cost of service, in time and money, on a pre-catalist van is a third of a 79 and later.
In Portland you are required to take your car in if the check engine light comes on.

I am not fixing the van to sell it.
I am fixing it to continue to use as I have since 1991.

David

p.s. if you have never owned a
buick century v6,
pre 1979 ford truck / van with a 351w or I6,
pre 79 chevy pickup with 350,
dodge dart/plymoth satilite with a slant 6,
or a dodge tradesman van with a slant 6 or 318,
you don't know what reliability really is.
If you have, you would understand why I am fixing an E-150 that just won't die.

 

Finally, you've posted your real motivation.

From reading your posts it appears that your '78 has already died & requires a body transplant. Where I come from its a good old body/chassis that gets restored. Drivetrain components get swapped out like flashlight batteries. For that "$3000 grand" you could buy a really nice '92 & up Econoline to drive this afternoon & be done with it. A functional catalytic converter is a good thing to have. I've owned plenty of "pre 79" vehicles & know that the newer technology is more reliable, but more complex. Perhaps its you who's never owned anything newer than a "pre 79" since '91 & doesn't "know what reliability really is"?

I live in a house built before 1895, but would not want to go back to my '72 Econoline. Good luck building your Frankenstein '78, just hope you're not too unhappy if the 'main spring' breaks & your $3000 relic becomes a troublesome $5000 premadonna. Still think it would be preferable to transplant your running drivetrain into a sound Econoline w/blown mechanicals, instead of trying to swap bodies. The VIN is associated with the body & will set insurance rates, some state inspections would expect the proper pollution equipment based on VIN model year. If you use that '89 cargo body Portland may require you to outfit the van as an '89 based on VIN, complete with catalytic converter. You could be in violation of more serious Federal laws if you swap ID plates. There is no way to avoid surprises when contemplating such an ambitious project.

 

Actually the state of Oregon has a combined vehicle tittle.
You give them the title for the chassis and the frame, and you end up with a tittle for the older year.

As for having a catalytic converter on a work truck, have you ever seen one start a fire?

Since the alignment has been fixed after my neighbors girlfriend drunk drove a suburban into it.
The major body problems are:
Rust at the top of the A-pillar
Core support pushed towards the passenger side.

You seem to think that I am stupid.
That I would try to save a frame that has rust of metal fatigue.
Or that I would try to fix something that can easily be found used.

I only posed to verify that Mitchel was correct about the body.
Not to start a flaming war with someone I have never met about a van that they have never seen.

 

The use of the VIN became Federal law in '80 & the VIN is attached to the body, not the frame/chassis. If you attempt to use an '80 or later body this standardized VIN will be attached to it. This was mostly true in the years immediately prior to '80 as well. Tampering with the VIN can be serious trouble. New titles need to match an existing VIN. Oregon surely follows the Federal rules.

Read up on VIN regulations:

http://www.boss302.com/legal.htm

You seem to think my comments are not offered earnestly. If what I volunteered made you feel I thought you were "stupid" that was not my intention. I'd hoped to help you look into & avoid costly pitfalls. It became obvious that you STILL have a chip on your shoulder about converters, resist change & possess a peculiar preference.

Wish you luck starting any kind of "war" w/me. Better for you to expend your energy on that "flaming" body swap project.