I am going to address these two statements.

Clean??? Every government in the world has declared Gas and Diesel very unclean fuels. Some have even enacted plans to become petrol free and are close to doing so.

Second statement. Talk to a racer? Ask any real racer about fuel economy and you will likely get laughed at. Racing uses more fuel than regular driving. If you do not believe me lets race sometime. Yes the fuel mileage is not as good as gas. I will address that next.

Now for cost. Yes when the government is involved the cost is going up. Let the independent companies make it and the cost will go down. I can produce my own ethanol for about $1 per gallon. Now lets look at that in perspective. My truck currently averages 15 MPG on gas. On Ethanol the average would be about 13 MPG give or take. I make a monthly 600 mile round trip. On gas that equals to about 40 gallons of gas for a cost of about $80 at today's prices. On Ethanol the same trip would be about 46.15 gallons for a cost of about $46.15. Nearly half the cost.

 

I guess some guys still don't get it. Has anyone here taken a tour of and Ethanol plant, and a petroleum refinery? Ethanol plants now take advantage of waste gases like methane and are locating (at least here in Indiana) next to landfills and windfarms to use "clean" energy for production. Yes corn ethanol is not the answer, we need higher fermentable products like sugar cane, beets ect... and algae, a new discovery which you can produce both biodiesel and ethanol. We are learning new and more effiecient ways for ethanol production, but petroleum is as efficient as it can be produced-it has hit a wall, and in some cases has gotten less effiecient due to new EPA standards. New diesel and gasoline fuels are cleaner due to lower sulpher contents, but at and extra price-extra refining and processing-which all takes more energy. Diesel used to be cheaper than gasoline due to less refining involved but now it needs to be "cracked" more to removed harmful pollutants. Where do they get rid of these pollutants (sulpher, carbons ect)? No one really knows, but instead of the pollutants going into the air, it goes elsewhere-landfills maybe? Also diesel has to be "washed" to remove salts that refiners use to combine with and remove the sulpher-which results in water pollution. Then some of these salts are still retained in the fuel and vehicle manufacturers have sevice bulletins out on fuel tanks rusting from the inside out due to the corrosive nature of these fuels. I have personally seen this problem and have replaced 2 fuel tanks on vehicles less than 10 years old and with less than 100,000 miles. The salts mix with some of the residual water left in the fuel either from refining or just natural attraction, transportation ect... Thats why diesels have fuel/water separators so the injection systems are not damaged. The good thing about retaining some of these salts is that it naturally reduces NOX emissions-which is real important in todays EGR equipped diesels. I'm close to 90,000 miles on my converted F150, and now have used e-85 for about 60,000 miles now with no corrosion problems, fuel pump failures ect... The only thing I have done is the Diablo chip. Stll getting 15mpg with e-85, and 17mpg with gas about a 12% difference in efficiency, but with about the same percent power increase. With a 50/50 mix e85/ gas, only about a 5-7% loss in efficiency and all the power of about a 93 octane gasoline with the same positive percentage in increase in power. Sorry for rambling on, but I though since there are so many pages in this thread now, one can get lost in here. Thanx.

 

I just don't like E10 for the fact that my car get worse gas mileage. Forced Induction motors tend to not play as friendly with E10 especially if you try to run higher boost levels.

Ethanol is hygroscopic (will absorb water), and is an excellent solvent (dissolves materials) and tends to make certain rubber components deform and shrink, older carb. Accel. pumps.

Not to mention problems in boating enviornments and phase seperation in 2-stroke fuel mix.

 

Older vehicles don't do so good on ethanol-that is a fact-that's why they improved fuel systems to tolerate the stuff. Even additives like MTBE and even naptha-which is used as a lead substitute dried out a lot of components. I don't use ethanol in my boat either-I know about water absorbtion too well as a mechanic. The only vehicles I even try to use e85 in is modern "Closed" systems which use charcoal canister recovery systems. Holley has a e85 carb out now and might get one for my Jeep, but would have to fabricate a closed recovery system and replace the older lines, fuel diaphrams ect... with more modern offerings.

 

It takes an incredible amount of energy to compress air to those levels. The drain is fast and the regulation is difficult to maintain.

Being a Bio-Chem major I can tell you ethanol is inefficient the way we are producing it. Sugar and corn (foon-shine and moonshine, your e-85 basically) are food crops, your driving the price up and diminishing supply. The government regulates and pays farmers NOT to plant on fields to keep prices where they want them to be. You could argue the fermentation of things like algae and other plants that use less nutrients from LAND would make it economical.

We have land set aside by our loving, honest government that was supposed to be used for solar and wind energy development but was leased to companies that have done nothing in the well over 5 years they have had it.

If you covered a ideal plot of land the size of Montgomery Co VA with solar panels you could supply half the country with solar electricity. At the cost of the panels, it would be a poor decision TODAY. However in 5-10 years, like everything, the price of electricity will go up. Making it a good investment? Probably not, but we can argue in 5 years.

However, propane... That is smart right now. They still burn off gas hydrocarbons at some wells. It is a good coolant as well, way more efficient when compared to the CO2 ac systems that they are looking into replacing the current vehicle AC systems. Also, R134 is NOT Freon. The reason r12 is out is because r134 has a half life that is roughly 15 years opposed to 30 or so.

Hydrocarbons are not going away. 15 years ago we had "50 years left"... Last I heard we now have 60? Okay...

A friend of mine (his family) put up a wind turbine in MD a few years ago. At the time it was the largest in MD, may still be. Problem is, the batteries to store the energy when it is not windy are friggen expensive. They also don't last long because of the drain-charge back and forth.

I have no answer, only criticism. But, I can offer up that a gallon of 95% moonshine (ethanol) cost under $2.00 to make and distill, including electricity and turbo yeast. 24 hour turn around from mix to final product. Look into a ethanol lic in your state if your a hard core e-85 man.

Last note, the answer is not offering government funds to companies or individuals to develop or use these systems. I work for my money, I like my money. If you must take it, at least use it for something that has a prayer of helping me at some point. Letting the government steer your belief is like going to a auto shop for an oil change and leaving with a $5,000 invoice. If they profit, they are biased.

I don't intend to attack or flame on anyone.

 

ETHANOL SUCKS IN EVERY WAY

 

Interesting conversations. I am afraid that there is so much baggage behind all aspects to this conversation. I am a sculptor and I produced an art installation in NY that has partially to do with corn production, gmo's, ethanol, organic and more. I produce a small barn in the shape of a coffin, with 1000 lbs of corn feed pouring out two sides of the barn. The exhibition was called OVERFLOW. Some info here -> http://darinwhite.com if you want to see it.

I have talked to many farmers on both sides of the gmo/organic issues. I have spoken to large producers and small producers, government agencies and more. It is a jumbled mess. All around. Everyone is trying to shape the law/language/percentages to their favor for this heated debate. Where is the truth? I would guess somewhere in the middle. Corporations do not want to loose profits and (many) will do whatever is required to maintain these profits without reservation for the lives of others. Chemicals, modifications, pattens, takeover, lobbying, strong-arming, false advertising, whatever. While ethanol may provide an alternate fuel besides relying on foreign oil which I am glad for, it also costs a substantial amount of money to produce it, and it changed the commodity of corn and farming in general. Is it worth it? I don't know. Why aren't we looking at cooking oils? I really don't know the answer, but I do know that the facts will be twisted and distorted to bolster the argument for WHOEVER is trying to get their side heard just like in politics to get elected. People are greedy, and to solve this energy crises it will take people (who are a whole heck of a lot more intelligent than I am) who are willing to look at truth rather than politics.

 

The people who said "burning food for fuel is a scam" have been flawlessly vindicated by events.

Now the US is a net exporter of gasoline, is awash in more CNG than it can use, and our energy problems are solved for a very long time.

 

Cooking oil is being used as a fuel-biodiesel. My son now drives my ethanol pwered truck with over 150,000 miles on it without any engine related issues-I guess as a test platform, my slightly converted 4.2 V6 was a good choice. Now I have an older diesel in which I make homemade biodiesel out of old cooking oil. The supply of used cooking oil, also known as wvo (waste vegetable oil) is drying up for us independant users as many recycling companies now pay restaurants to pump thier wvo, convert it to biodiesel, and even the fast food chains now save, process and use thier own wvo in thier delivery trucks. So the landfills ect... nowadays are no longer filled up with as much waste oils(even including crankcase oils which are now recycled and reused) or waste biomass (garbage, old corn ect...) alot of the corn used in ethanol is extra that the farmers silo up after selling thier off their original contract corn-this helps farmers make a little extra money, and doesn't detract from the food supplies. Now this year may be different due to the drought and corn prices will jump up, but that's only in the corn belt, other areas of the country use suger cane, sugar beets, sorghum or whatever the native dominant sugar producing plant would be to produce ethanol, so it will be a region by region price adjustment.

 

Since no crops can be grown in this part of the country without massive amounts of irrigation. Im not sure that it is environmentally sound to use plant-based fuels here.

 

Does this person think ONLY ethanol gets subsidized ? Guess what some of the biggest profitable oil companies get subsidized and also weasel their way out of paying tax's

 

politics and chemicals

A. ethanol strips metals of "protective" layers /salts /=corrosion
B.100% only viable engines work best
C. water is the enemy (all alcohols are "water eaters")
D. butanol works wonders
E. Get along

nuffsaid

 

oil is a way of life that will die very hard

 

Why do you need these protective layers ? Because either you had moisture in your regular fuel or the fuel sat unused for some time . Where do the salts come from ?

 

The metals themselves already have a layer ( aluminum oxide ,magnesium , zinc chromate ....) the corrosive salts come from these layers in the presents of the alcohol

water is in the air , alcohols are
hydrophilic (water loving) just like dot 3 brake fluid (which is a "higher alcohol")
pumping it ,transporting it etc. no way of keep it from absorbing the water

and on top of that alcohol is less energy dense ( 100% works but cold starts suck) and with that and water it is literally "watered" down