Hey guys, I just got back from my vacation to Phoenix and Vegas and thought I'd post the information I got from the performance shops I visited.

I went to the EFI shop first. I talked to the proprietor, Bob, of B&R Automotive (Imagine Injection). www.imagineinjection.com. I told him what I wanted to do, and he took me to school. My intention was to build a manifold and have individual throttle bodies on each port, and run a 16-injector setup so I could have idle resolution and horsepower.

His input was that I use a regular manifold with a throttle body on top, but stay with port injection. He said there was a little power to be gained by using individual runners, but it wasn't worth the effort to get it. Also, he said it eliminates the distribution problems associated with turbocharging an IR injection system. As for the port injection, he said I should just use one injector per port, but set the system up for sequential injection to get better idle resolution. This bugged me because sequential injection requires a camshaft postition sensor. It turns out that Accel makes a distributor for FE (which he had in stock, if you can believe it) that has camshaft position sensing built in. Cool. In summary, the EFI sounds much easier than I expected.

Next stop was Forced Air Tech. www.forcedairtech.com.

This guy has some of the cleanest work I have ever seen. He has a 650HP Subaru that has a clutched supercharger as well as an intercooled turbo. At low RPM the supercharger does the work, since the turbo is not efficient down there. When the turbo starts to make boost the supercharger clutches out. Very cool. Looking under the hood it all looks stock. Anyway, he listens to what I'm putting together and says I can go with twin turbos if I want, but it really isn't going to do anything more than a big single, just cost more. In fact, he claims I'll make more power with a single. His input was that the twin setup would spool quicker, but it wouldn't be a significant difference, and I would be just as happy with a single. Again, simpler than I expected. He said his Subaru was on a stock engine that they never even opened up prior to putting the induction system on, and had great street manners. He thought my plan of getting street manners, mileage and big HP out of my proposed combo sounded very doable.

It was a fun trip, and the knowledge gained was a nice bonus.

-Scouder

 

That all sounds very reasonable... got the $'s yet?

 

Good stuff. The setup you mention with the clutched super charger and turbo is a great idea. Never heard of anything like that before. Is the supercharger something mass produced or a piece that he custom built with the clutch? Which engine management system are you thinking of running and why even run a distributor? Good luck with it.

Dustin

 

Hmm, that's kinda funny. Some of the ricers I've worked on just call them camshaft position sensors. About the most spectacular was a Mits with a LED trigger that used a shutter wheel. IIRC #1 (TDC) had an extra slot so that the ECU could index to the valve event. A dielectric cover separated the trigger from secondary voltage distribution.

I'm with Dustin, which ECU is going to handle all these inputs? How much will you have to tell it, and how "user friendly" is the software?

I'll save the injector Qs for some other day. LOL

Mike

 

B&R is a reseller for several makes of ECU. He recommended the Accel DFI system and a 60-2 crank trigger for me.

I was initially going to eliminate the distributor, and I still might. Even though the Accel distributor makes it easier, I still like the idea of coil packs. It shouldn't be that hard to make something to give it an index. I have to have a distributor plug to drive the oil pump, so maybe I just put a sensor there.

He showed me a throttle body that was around 1300cfm, IIRC, for about $650, and said I could run a 72lb injector if I was only shooting for 800HP. Obviously if I want more ponies I have to step up the injector. 82lb injectors should cover 1000HP.

He said the the DFI system with sensors is around $1800. Crank trigger is cheap, injectors are about $700. By the time you add fuel pump and regulator for high pressure it can get spendy. I can put the bungs in my manifold and machine the fuel rails, so I won't have any $ in machine work.

-Scouder

 

Keep up the good research and posting of info This is something I've been tossing around as well...

 

Scouder,

Fascinating news. Did you ask him about the Tec3r? Why do they recommend the Accel unit? Did they have any comment on mass flow versus speed density?

Electromotive has a crank sensor you can install behind the harmonic balancer.

Are you going to use a Victor for the manifold?

Peter

 

I just learned so much just by reading this post... We should send Scouder out on trips more often. LOL!! On a different note, Where do you get the specs to machine your own fuel rails? or is that just trial and error? Anyways this project is definately turning out to be something most of us will be jealous of. Can't wait to see where you go with this.

Madmike33

 

did you check if you can put VTEC in there.

Most of the supra guys swap the dual turbo's for a big single. It's not like you really need the low end power with all the CI's you have.

efi and turbo's sound cool, but it just doesn't seem right on an old school motor. Why the change?

 

Ughh! Vtec. That would really suck with a 4spd. LOL! Why would anyone want to constantly be reving 6000 - 9000 Rpms?..... Ughh! Vtec.

Madmike33

 

Basically this is all about altitude. I have 7000' of it here, so my normally aspirated HP suffers dramatically. I'm probably giving up 150+ HP from sea level. the other problem is that my truck can see 3000' of altitude difference in a typical day. So, what it comes down to is that I have to create my own atmosphere.

-Scouder

 

I asked initally about the Tec3r, and he said I should go Accel. I confess I didn't press him for a reason. I will be using the Electomotive style trigger, and I will be using the Victor drilled and welded for bungs. It's already ported to match the heads, and I have read that turbos like big plenums.

MadMike, I think machining the rails is just a matter of getting an accurate centerline distance. I'll find out for sure when I do it, as usual.

-Scouder

 

Great, that's exactly what I'm planning on doing eventually. How about after you're done with yours I send you my Victor and you can do the same for mine?

Peter

 

The efi...well the whole thing looks like it can be a very good project for all older vehicle EFI conversions. Im very interested in combing the new and the old I just dont like dealing with my modern harnesses, Thats why i like putting EFI on a clean old truck so you dont have all that emissions crap in the way. So what exactly are you going to use or have you gotten that far? Like say for a T-body and a control unit? I know holley, edelbrock and massflo have systems that come with every thing but I know thats not your style so what do you think you will piece togeather?

 

Scouder, this may be a stupid question but here goes. Do you know how many horses the holley pro-jection systems good for, and are they compatible with turbos?