Quick ignition question
Senior User
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 238
Likes: 0
Quick ignition question
Im trying to help my buddy get his 460 running, Im pretty sure that its the ignition, im not sure if its wired right or not. Its a points ignition, but its all out of a boat but it looks the same as any other points setup, and I dont know anything about it. it has the 1 wire out of the distributor from the points, its connected to the negative side of the coil, there is another wire hooked to it but im not sure where it goes, then the positive side goes to the resistor. Could someone give me a quick description of where the wires need to go. Right now it runs but it wont do much more than a real rough idle, im pretty sure its got something to do with the ignition being messed up.
Dave
http://www.davesmonsterpit.com/dmp31.gif
Dave
http://www.davesmonsterpit.com/dmp31.gif
Junior User
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 89
Likes: 0
Quick ignition question
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 24-Apr-01 AT 10:46 PM (EST)[/font][p]Dave,
The other wire sounds like a tach lead, remove it and see if it gets better. The wiring is pretty basic, hot lead to resistor, resistor to the + side of coil, - side to dist. Check the carbon button inside the cap and look for cracks and carbon trails, then check each plug wire hole for arcing or corrosion then check the wires. Boats have a tendency to get water in this stuff.
Check with a vacuum gauge, could have a vacuum leak at the carb.
Jim
The other wire sounds like a tach lead, remove it and see if it gets better. The wiring is pretty basic, hot lead to resistor, resistor to the + side of coil, - side to dist. Check the carbon button inside the cap and look for cracks and carbon trails, then check each plug wire hole for arcing or corrosion then check the wires. Boats have a tendency to get water in this stuff.
Check with a vacuum gauge, could have a vacuum leak at the carb.
Jim
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 56,977
Likes: 2,733
From: Virginia
Quick ignition question
While it is running, you should get about 9 volts to the + of the coil to ground. Make sure the wiring inside the distributor is in good shape and does not have an internal break in it under the insulation. This wire is under alot of stress over time because the breaker plate moves back and forth when the ignition is advanced or retarded. This brings up another good place to look. The holes that the breaker point plate pivots on can get worn, causing erratic timing. Also grab the rotor and rock it back and forth to check the dist bushings. If these have play, it will mess up your point gap(dwell) setting. Also change the condensor, it can give strange problems sometimes.
Senior User
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 238
Likes: 0
Quick ignition question
OK, I dont know where that one wire is going, could be the tach, it does have one. but it has 12v, I removed it, no difference. I hooked a timing light up to it, and at idle the pulse is steady and looks good, and it idles good. the second you open that throttle it blubbers and skips and the timing light goes all crazy. I measured the voltage on both sides of the ballast resistor and they were the same, suspecting something was up, I found one to borrow off of another boat that has a 351, it measured 12 on one side then about 4 on the side going to the coil. I tried it instead, and the same thing. Now I am thinking its the points, they look new, but real cheap, they werent touching square, so i tweaked them a bit, and same thing. The carb is a brand new Edelbrock 750cfm. and the distributor doesnt have vac. advance, I think its a fancy marine thing. I cant decide if the bushings are worn out or not, but right now im thinking that some how the points are getting bumped around wrong. anymore ideas?
Dave
http://www.davesmonsterpit.com/dmp31.gif
Dave
http://www.davesmonsterpit.com/dmp31.gif
Post Fiend
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 8,238
Likes: 3
From: Oregon
Quick ignition question
I know this is basic, and I'm sure you've checked it, but it may not hurt to double check that your spark plug wires are in their proper order. My buddie had gotten his engine together and it ran with the same symptoms as your friends. It turned out that he had one or two plug wires in the wrong order. Maybe you'll get lucky and the simplest fix will do it...good luck!
If your knuckles ain't bleeding you did something wrong.
'72 F-250 "Hi-Boy" 4x4, Dana 60/HD44, FE390 @ 400hp(purt near!), 4-speed, custom suspension w 4" lift, mud on black.
If your knuckles ain't bleeding you did something wrong.
'72 F-250 "Hi-Boy" 4x4, Dana 60/HD44, FE390 @ 400hp(purt near!), 4-speed, custom suspension w 4" lift, mud on black.
Senior User
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 238
Likes: 0
Quick ignition question
Thats the first thing i suspected, so I told him the right sequence and he says its right, but I didnt check for myself. This is a marine engine, are there any other firing orders? also He said that they tried to get a rotor for it, and there were 2 different kinds available, one was 180° off from the other, it seems to me that if it was 180 degrees off it wouldnt run, plus the timing light shows its right on at idle.
Dave
http://www.davesmonsterpit.com/dmp31.gif
Dave
http://www.davesmonsterpit.com/dmp31.gif
Trending Topics
Posting Guru
Joined: Jun 1999
Posts: 2,415
Likes: 3
From: Comox Valley, Canada
Quick ignition question
"I hooked a timing light up to it, and at idle the pulse is steady and looks good, and it idles good. the second you open that throttle it blubbers and skips and the timing light goes all crazy."
From this statement one possible suspect would be a worn/loose/sloppy timing chain. If you hold the throttle open for a while does it clear up and run better or at least as good as at idle? If so it could be a streched timing chain. Try turning the crank shaft with a wrench while you watch the rotor in the distributor. It should move pretty much as soon as you move the crank, the amount of delay is the amount of slack in the timing chain. So the more delay the more slack, which is bad
Just a thought.
Sparky
From this statement one possible suspect would be a worn/loose/sloppy timing chain. If you hold the throttle open for a while does it clear up and run better or at least as good as at idle? If so it could be a streched timing chain. Try turning the crank shaft with a wrench while you watch the rotor in the distributor. It should move pretty much as soon as you move the crank, the amount of delay is the amount of slack in the timing chain. So the more delay the more slack, which is bad
Just a thought.Sparky
FTE Stories
Ford Trucks for Ford Truck Enthusiasts
AEV FXL Super Duty - the Super Duty Raptor Ford Doesn't Make
Brett Foote
Lobo Vs Lobo: Proof the F-150 Lobo Should Be Even Lower!
Michael S. Palmer
Ford's 2001 Explorer Sportsman Concept Looks For a New Home
Verdad Gallardo
10 Best Ford Truck Engines We Miss the Most!
Joe Kucinski
2026 Shelby F-150 Off-Road: Better Than a Raptor R?
Brett Foote
2027 Super Duty Carhartt Package First Look: 12 Things You NEED to Know!
Michael S. Palmer
10 Most Surprising 2026 Ford Truck Features!
Joe Kucinski
Top 10 Ford Trucks Coming to Mecum Indy 2026
Brett Foote
5 Best / 5 Worst Ford Truck Wheels of All Time
Joe Kucinski
Senior User
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 238
Likes: 0
Quick ignition question
The timing chain is about a year old, and I seriously doubt its bad. I think I have narrowed it down to the points or the distributor. But I am open to suggestions.
Dave
http://www.davesmonsterpit.com/dmp31.gif
Dave
http://www.davesmonsterpit.com/dmp31.gif
Post Fiend
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 8,238
Likes: 3
From: Oregon
Quick ignition question
[font size="1" color="#FF0000"]LAST EDITED ON 25-Apr-01 AT 01:27 PM (EST)[/font][p]I've actually heard of a couple of guys who managed to put their distributers in with it set up 180 off, and it did run...barely. It would be easy to try it the other way and see what happens. I had to chuckle, my buddy swore up and down he had the correct order too but when I went over he didn't. When you get tired and frustrated its easy to get turned around. I don't see why it would be wired in a different order just because it was in a boat, but then I don't know squat about marine applications. The advice to swap out the condenser was also good...this should only cost a buck or two and I've seen bad condensers generate maddening symptoms. Let us know what it ends up being.
If your knuckles ain't bleeding you did something wrong.
'72 F-250 "Hi-Boy" 4x4, Dana 60/HD44, FE390 @ 400hp(purt near!), 4-speed, custom suspension w 4" lift, mud on black.
If your knuckles ain't bleeding you did something wrong.
'72 F-250 "Hi-Boy" 4x4, Dana 60/HD44, FE390 @ 400hp(purt near!), 4-speed, custom suspension w 4" lift, mud on black.
Senior User
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 238
Likes: 0
Quick ignition question
The points and condenser look brand new, but I think the points are real cheap and they are arcing or something, they were bent and rubbing on the base but I bent it back up. What would happen without a condenser? I think I have a spare one to try, Im going to see if I cant get a set of better points. What about the little cam that opens the points? it looks worn out, but im not sure. one thing I cant figure is why it does this when you open the throttle, it kind of cuts out then fires rapidly, then cuts out.
Dave
http://www.davesmonsterpit.com/dmp31.gif
Dave
http://www.davesmonsterpit.com/dmp31.gif
Senior User
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 238
Likes: 0
Quick ignition question
another thing im going to try is running a new wire from the battery straight to the resistor, then to the coil. to eliminate all the old corroded wires.
Dave
http://www.davesmonsterpit.com/dmp31.gif
Dave
http://www.davesmonsterpit.com/dmp31.gif
Senior User
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Quick ignition question
I'd take a look at the carb jets. When you crack the throttle you are going from idle jets to cruise jets, so they might be dirty or varnished up or something.
It also could be a problem with basic ignition stuff--you probably checked the cap and rotor to make sure they are good. Condensation under the cap, maybe? Bad timing?
You could have the dwell set a little short. That would make the spark too quick to let the engine accelerate properly. As long as the dwell on your points is correct, I doubt the little cam doohickey on the distributor shaft is worn. They sometimes look a little shiny, but it's pretty hard to wear down a chunk of brass with a piece of plastic.
It also could be a problem with basic ignition stuff--you probably checked the cap and rotor to make sure they are good. Condensation under the cap, maybe? Bad timing?
You could have the dwell set a little short. That would make the spark too quick to let the engine accelerate properly. As long as the dwell on your points is correct, I doubt the little cam doohickey on the distributor shaft is worn. They sometimes look a little shiny, but it's pretty hard to wear down a chunk of brass with a piece of plastic.
Senior User
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 238
Likes: 0
Quick ignition question
Well, we just figured it out and it makes both of us feel stupid. The little spring that is supposed to go on the points was missing, so it just had the copper contact to close it. It would work at idle, but then the spring couldnt close it fast enough. We got a new set of points with the spring and what do you know, it runs great. Now there is another non related problem, water is geting in the oil.
Dave
http://www.davesmonsterpit.com/dmp31.gif
Dave
http://www.davesmonsterpit.com/dmp31.gif