Hello to everybody, and thanks in advance for your time and patience.

First, let me introduce you to my darling.
I have a 1978 Ford F-250 Ranger 3/4 ton 4x4 black longbed truck. My dad has owned it since 1986 and took very good care of it. A few years back, he sold it to his brother. His brother did some work on it (tightened up the steering, that's mainly it) but also gave away the steel bed toolbox and took out the 4" lift! Also, he didn't quite appreciate what this truck has to offer. A few years after that he put it up for sell, and gave us first chance. I convinced my parents to buy it for me as my first vehicle, I was getting my license shortly afterward. This truck is very special to me and my dad, and it has been very good to us (the only vehicle we've had that hasn't broke down or required any major mechanical work to date, unless you count my dad's Harley, lol!)

My Ford has a 400 paired with a C6, my dad took out the stock 351M that used to be in there, and dropped the 400 from an old 74' LTD.

Recently, we acquired a 1978 F-250 Custom Crew Cab (Lariat I believe), with a 460 and C6. The previous owner was driving it when somehow (I forget the details) it lost it's oil. However, he turned it off immediatly.

Anyway, me and my dad are planning on rebuilding this engine and eventually dropping it into my truck. But we don't plan on just rebuilding it, we're gonna light a fire up under its ***! And that's where you guys come in.

We've already got a few ideas on what exactly we want to do to it. I'm wanting increase the horsepower and torque significantly, I'd like it to exceed 500HP, and more is better. I want to focus on the low end. I want this thing to be a mean, lean, stump-pulling machine. However, even though the focus is on the low end, I don't want to sacrifice all of the top end. I still want to be able to scream down a road if the need (or rather craving) arises. I already plan on eventually replacing everything in this motor, so spare no suggestions that come to mind.

Me and my dad are on a limited budget, however, I'm willing to sink as much money as needed, even if it takes me a few years to accumulate it. With that in mind, I welcome suggestions on what parts will give me the most bang for the buck, as well as the parts that will give me what I want, in heaping quantities.

My dad is very experienced when it comes to older automobiles, especially with this truck (he's had it taken apart in nearly every way possible, except for the transmission, in which he's only replaced the seals) so he knows it inside and out.

I myself have learned much of his knowledge, but I still have much to learn. So if you expect something may be particulary confusing, or not known by the average ford truck enthusiast, then please feel free to elaborate further.

If there is anything anyone would like to know about my truck (or the junk truck we're using for spare parts) please ask and me or my dad will answer to the best of our ability.

I ask everyone who knows squat about the 460 to give their opinions and suggestions about this project.

Also, a few quick questions.

Does anyone know what exactly the stock computer on my truck does? My dad says the truck won't start without it, although I've personally never tried myself. I've thought about it, and I just don't see how it can control the timing or whatnot...and details about it's purpose is welcome.

How hard would it be to take the a/c components from the junk truck and install them into mine? Any tips or pointers would be welcome as I'm considering putting a/c into my truck.

I've heard a lot about stroker engines, or stroking engines. I know it's something to do with increasing the stroke of the pistons, but I'm afraid I don't know as much about it as I should. Could someone give me the 411 about stroker engines, the advantages and drawbacks, and what one must do to a 460 to 'stroke' it?

I think that's it, I'm sorry for the long post, I wanted to make sure everyone knew what I wanted and was willing to do.

Thanks again for everyones time and patience...

 

Well I will try and answer a few questions you seem to have one the computor your dad is talking about in a 78 will most likely be the ignition box, and without that you have no ignition thus no fire and no start.
Stroking a 460 means increasing the distance that the crank moves the pistons, on a 460 this is easy to do there are stroker cranks available for these engines cost vary but you can get a cast steel stroker crank in either 4.14, 4.3, or 4.5 inch strokes. the cast units are good to 700hp pretty easily (mine is supporting over 800hp) and cost around 3-400, they also have forged cranks available now for around $750-850 and those will support over 1200hp. For that you will also need new rods and those aren't to bad either around 350-400.
My personal suggestion is a 4.3" stroke crank, and a .030 overbore to make a 521cid engine which will get you 500hp pretty easily and still have some stump pulling torque with the right components.

 

...Welcome Jason to Ford Truck Enthusiasts!

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…..See you on the boards.

 

What is your budget? Are you looking to still drive it every day, or this truck going to be a play toy for weekends? I can feed you a build list for 2 of my old street engines, one was a 466ci (30 over bored only) that made just over 525 HP, and the other was a 500ci (Stock crank, offset ground chevy rods) that made just over 550.

The 466 was an Iron SCJ headed engine that was not streetable and needed race fuel.
The 500 was a D0VE headed engine that ran on pump gas and was very streetable.

I maintain a log of the builds. Both used Cam Research Corp camshafts. The 500 was a solid flat tappet, the 466 was a hydraulic roller with Crane hydraulic roller lifters. The 466 sounded like a race ingine with 13.8:1 compression, the 500 sounded very "normal hot-rod" with its 9.4:1 compression and larger CI under the cam.

Both engine would rip your arms out of your shoulders if you were in 4x4 and stomped it.

I nearly wiped out the 500ci in front of the house in 4x4 doing a burnout.....the front end had a locker, as did the rear...and I wound up the 2800 stall convertor in high range 4x4 and let her rip and the front end was pulling sideways and nearly took out my own car before I realized what was happening....it happened so fast it was scary!

If you come acrossed any questions, hit me with em and I'll try to help as I can. I am a fairly usefull 429/460 nut case.

 

If this truck is going to be your daily driver take into consideration how many miles you'll be putting on it daily. Then make sure that you can afford to get only 4 or 5 mpg with the new build. I know these trucks aren't economy vehicles in the first place but about the time you say "How much worse could my mileage get?" you'll find out. I started at 8-10mpg, moved down to 4mpg and I anticipate my new engine will getting about half that. Of course this is of no big concern if you're just using it for a toy and not for daily transportation.

More horsepower will require that you get more air flow both in and out of the engine. You can either have a set of stock heads worked over and ported or get a set of aftermarket heads. I've been very happy with the TrickFlow street heads I'm using. I believe they cost me about $1800. A couple weeks ago I sent them off to Scott Johnston for porting. If you buy them new from Scott he'll inlcude basic porting for around $2200. For what it's worth his cast iron ported heads (stock Ford heads worked over) don't run a whole lot less because they take a lot more time to port. Given the option I'd prefer to spend a couple extra $$ for the aluminum heads.

This isn't specifically related to the engine but in regards to your A/C question, yes you can swap it from the Crewcab. As a side benefit you'll also gain a high output heater too. You'll need to swap the whole dash, cut a hole in the firewall (you can take a template off the old truck once the unit is removed) and then most of the rest will bolt up. The disadvantage, however, is that it really cuts down on room in your engine compartment. This is part of the reason that I actually removed my A/C altogether. Windows down at 60mph does the trick.

These other guys can probably give a lot more info than me but keep in mind that your tranny may require some upgrades to properly handle the extra power your engine will produce. Clutch upgrades are relatively cheap if you can install them yourself. You'll also need a stall converter specific to the cam you use in the truck, once you get to that point. Then once all that is done you'll find all the other parts that big horsepower isn't kind to.

 

Cap'N Crunch....I agree on the fuel for power...I use about 2.5-3 gallons in 300 feet....and that is VP-C14. You want power....you gotta feed the machine!

 

Well, I don't plan on using it daily at all. I haven't drove much since last summer, I mowed lawns & carried the tractor and stuff in my truck, and occasionally did misc jobs where I'd be hauling some crap off. I don't plan on mowing anymore, but I'll still be doing misc hauling jobs, and could eventually plow snow in the winters (if Indianas weird weather permits, lol.) Also, I may occasionally drive it in winter when we do get heavy snow.

So, having that in mind;
I want it to be able to use pump gas (I know using the correct/higher octanes will increase performance, but does using lower/incorrect octanes potentialy damage a high-performance engine like what I want?)

I'd prefer it to be street legal, but if it wasn't, how exactly would the authorities find out? Especially when I wouldn't be driving it much...

I don't plan on doing much to the stock tranny. I'll probably eventually get the transmission checked out (have seals and filters and such replaced.) As far as we know the C6 has never been worked on (except for way back when my dad changed the seals.) Despite this it's never gave us any worry or reason to have it checked out, it's got approx 72k miles on it. And I've heard elsewhere in these forums that the stock C6 can handle up to like 800Hp, is this in fact true?! We replaced the front universals in the wheels because they had never been replaced and were starting to make noise when the wheels were locked. We originally only replaced one side, with a OEM stock universal, but later we decided to go ahead and replace the other side. But we had found a beefier version that we went ahead and put in there. We figured it wouldn't matter. So I may eventually replace either the stock one, or both with beefier versions, just for peace of mind.
I will eventually also replace the lock hubs in the front too.
The rear axle is a dana 60 I believe, the front I forget what it is. The rear has a limited slip diff in it. I'd be willing to change the diffs if it's recommended.
I shouldn't need to do anything to the transfer case right? I wouldn't think so, but correct me if I'm wrong.
Also, I have no clue what a 'stall converter' is. Could someone please explain?
And as far as 'clutch upgrades' go, are you talking about on a manual transmission? Or are you reffering to clutches in my C6 automatic? Which I doubt we'd want to open that thing up that much ourselves.

Anyways, having all that in mind, how much horsepower would be too much? Would there be a limit on torque too?

As for the a/c thing, I do not under any circumstances want to replace my dash, although I'd be willing to make small modifications to it to accomodate the extra a/c controls. Also, would it be possible to make a small box to contain the extra a/c controls and just mount it somewhere? I know of a couple of spaces where I think it would look decent.

I also have another quick question not related to the engine.
The steering on my truck has lately been acting up. When you turn the wheel, it feels fine, but it will kind of grab or hesitate on and off as you turn it further. Sometimes it will not be noticable, other times it will be very noticable. We first thought it was the steering pump, which we replaced, but it didn't fix the steering. So then it must be either the shock absorber in the linkage, or the steering gear box right? We tried jacking the truck up and pushing the wheels left and right on our own, and they felt smooth and 'right'. So, where do you think the problem lies? Also, about how much would a new/refurbished steering box cost?

Anyways, the truck is a toy that we're working on over time, but I also use it for some occasional work, and for getting around in adverse weather.

Thanks again for all of your time and patience.

 

Your fuel octane needs must be met. If you try to do a 10.5:1 compression engine and run regular unleaded your valves and seats wont last, and you make shatter the crown on the piston above the top ring groove. Then the top ring tries to leave and you waste the entire cylinder. So, you need to be realistic with yourself and decide what you want to do. If its planed to be a regualr 87 octane fuel engine, you plan it as such and do a 8.5 or 8.7:1 compression. You can do super unleaded at close to 10 or 10.5 if you have the cam/heads set up for that.... So once you make that decision, you know where to start the build.

As for the legal thing, if you live in an area that requires all OEM smog equipment than you goto have the EGR plate, charcol canisters, air pump, convertors. If you dont have an emmissions test or a state visual inspection...I guess the sky is the limit.

My stock (137,000 miles) C-6 lived at 750 hp in a pulling truck just fine. They are very good trannys. I went with a full roller CPPT (Art Carr) Transmission when I jumped to a 930 HP 521. We just had it torn down and inspected after 17 pulls last year and everything is 100%. A stock C-6 if in good shape starting out...can live behind some impressive power levels. I would not kick that sleeping dog. If it breaks fix it. It most likely wont break with a fresh drink of fluid and a cooler with a clean filter.

I just replaced my steering box last summer....I think it was like 250 or 300 from the local advance auto parts or autozone. I cant recall where I got the thing. I know they are hard to find, my store had to order one from another store on the west coast.

What year is the engine.....as in what heads are on it?

 

Even most counties that do require emissions equipment on vehicles will only require it so many years back. For instance in Spokane County it's 25 years so anything older than that is exempt and you can go nuts with it. You really have to check the local laws first.

Another thing to keep in mind regarding pump gas is that you can run a little bit higher compression with aluminum heads vs the iron heads before detonation is an issue. I don't know all the ins and outs of why that is . . . perhaps something with the thermal properties of aluminum.

The stall converter (torque converter) is what allows you to be in drive and be stopped with the engine at an idle. It sits between the engine and tranny. Once the engine reaches a certain RPM the converter will start moving the vehicle. Stock converters use a low stall speed because the engine is designed to produce power at low RPM's but on a high performance engine you'll typically start making power at a higher RPM. Therefore you want a higher stall speed so it'll get up and move when you stomp on the gas. The stall speed is determined more by the cam you use than anything else but this is why you'll read about people using a "2000rpm stall" or 2500 or 3500 etc. Once you get the engine figured out you'll want a converter that's matched to it.

 

About the octane thing, I think I'll go all out and build the engine with high octane and high comression ratio in mind. If I need a work truck that's easier on gas, my dad just bought a 2006 4x4 f-150 5.4, he would let me use it occasionally (if I promise to be carefull, lol!)

And about the pollution thing, screw the environment, I won't be using it that much.

Like I said, the C6 in my truck has never disappointed us even a bit. Not only that, but it's only got 72k miles on it, and we have a spare if needed.

About the steering box thing, do you think the problem lies in the box, or in steering shock absorber?

Earlier in this thread I said it was a 1978, but I was wrong. I was looking at the VIN number on the title, and the 460 is actually a 1979.

About whether to use aluminum or iron heads, I'm not sure. I'd like the extra compression ratio, but iron seems like it would be much more durable and resistant to damage from overheating (not that I plan on letting the 460 overheat.) Does anyone know approximately how much more compression I can get with aluminum heads? And are there any other advantages or disadvantages to using one or the other?

I know what a torque converter is, I just have never heard it called a stall converter. I didn't know I would want to change it to match my engine though.

Also another quick unrelated question.
The label on the stock engine that used to be in my truck said "351M/400" We figured it meant it was a 400 block with 351 heads or vice versa. Can someone clarify me on that?

 

You can run approx 1 full point of compression higher with the same octane fuel running alum heads Vs the iron heads (thats an approximation but it's the basic rule I live by)
the 351m/400 label just tells you that is the engine family, you have to look on a different line to find out which one it is. the block, heads, intake are exactly the same between those 2 engines the diffference is in the crank and pistons.

 

So if I wanna try and achieve 10:1 compression, I should definately use aluminum heads?

Also, another quick question.
There is a vaccuum resorvoire (a steel can with three ports) inside my engine compartment. It was hooked up when the stock engine was in there. However, when my dad swapped in the 400, he couldn't figure out how to hook up the resorvoire. The engine seems to run fine without it though. Anyways, what exactly was it used for? (I know it's used to store vaccuum, but did the stock engine need the extra vaccuum for something?) I remember seeing it listed in a LMC truck catalog among some other emissions control stuff (like a air injection reactor), but I don't if the resorvoir was used expressly for this purpose or what.
Thanks again.

 

That was a charcoal can from what I remember. I threw mine away years and years ago. It had something to do with absorbing unbrnt fuel and letting it release back to the intake later. Junk. You could get away with 10:1 easily with allum heads if you run a nice tight quench on a flat top piston. Make it a .044 to .048 quench didtance and you will be all set. Anything under .040 and you may ghost the cylinders....or just plain smack them. The very best you can set up quench would be to ghost every piston/quench pad....but you are talking super high end engine building and an engine that gets torn down every 20 or so runs. You dont want to be any where near that tight. The other thing you really should do is spend some time reading on Scott J's website...its the best ($25) money you will ever spend as far as learning to master the BBF.
Scott J - http://www.reincarnation-automotive.com/

Once you go there and learn, you will know more than most folks who touch 429/460 engines and you will have a very solid foundation of ideas and knowledge. I strongly suggest any budding 385 series guy goes and spends some time there.

 

What do you mean "ghost the cylinders"?

Also, it might be pointless to ask this question since there are so many things in question right now, but does anyone have a clue approximatly how much $$ is going to be needed to build this? Assuming that I'm starting with the block and almost definately buying everything else? (I can't think of anything stock that I'll want to keep) Or should I just build my engine on paper and add it up?

 

Jason, I mentioned "Ghosting" just for information. In your application it would be the absolute very worst thing you could do. It when you plan the piston to quench pad clearance so tight and you figuire for rod growth so close that at max RPM's you are kissing the head with the top of the piston. If you email me I can send you pictures of the light print it leaves on the head/piston. But remember, this is no good AT ALL for an engine that will see normal use. My engine are $30K race engines and go 20-30 runs between rebuilds.

As for what your talking price.....that all depends. You can re-use the stock crank, rods, heads, block, head bolts, main bolts, old waterpump, intake, carb dizzy and get new from there for an inexpensive mild build...or you can go with a inexpensive scat or Eagle rotating assembly witha nice nodular iron crank and H-beam rods, use an Edelbrock or a TrickFlow alluminum head, go ARP studs on heads and mains, a good carb, intake and a nice dizzy (I love the new Crane dizzy...Im running one in my 8,000+ RPM pulling motor with a moroso crank trigger firing it, but I have run it without the crank trigger and the timing is rock solid.). You can do a very nice 514 or 521ci for about the same price as a 460/466. The rotating assemblies are about the same price....

You almost have to decide what you want to spend, and then plan the build within it. You can doa mild street 514/521 for about $4000, or a serious street/race one for $6,000-$10,000 or go wild and drop upto or more thatn $30,000. Its a matter of what you want and what you want to afford.

You can use OEM heads, Alluminum DOVE style heads, or A-460 style heads. You can witha street-able solid roller cam, a street hydraulic roller cam, a solid flat tappet cam, or stay with a mild hydraulic cam. I have done the hydraulic roller and had great results with a set of iron DOOE-R heads, it was a very nice engine. I have also done street solid rollers and liked it even more, but that is a build that is limited in life (The lifters will fail eventually, so they become a maintenance/wear item). If your going to stay with stock crank and rods you can handle 500-600 HP. If you go with a scat or eagle nodular iron crank and H-beam rods you can handle 800+ HP. I ran a Scat 9000 lightweight stroker crank (About $450-$500) in a 930HP 521 with Eagle H-beam rods and had no problems for 1 year. That was 17 pulls. It would not hold upto drag racing with 60-70 passes in a year....or at least I dont think. Tell us, what do you think you can or want to afford? What kind of power level and RPM's do you really need to see? How much maintenance are you willing to accept? Do you want to just drive it for 10 years and not touch it, or is changing lifters every year and valve springs every year OK?

Larry