I Know I said I was going to walk away from this but I just can’t help myself. Yes Ford is a 33% shareholder in Mazda which gives Ford control of Mazda. They are the largest shareholder. With any openly traded company you can’t just point at one person and say he’s the owner. I could right now go out and buy shares of Ford, Toyota in the form of ADRs, or any other company. I would then be and owner and receive devidends when the company was making a profit. If you look at the shareholders report for any company it will list out who the majoriaty shareholders are. Usually banks and insurance companies will place second or third on this list. They then "sell" these to their customer in the form of mutual funds and such. You may be one of Toyota’s owners and not even know it, read through your portfolio very well. That’s part of what living in a “global economy” means. I know many people won’t comprehend any of this, but a lot of people will. When the new <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com[img] /><st1:City w:st=[/img]Toyota</st1:City> (in the form of ADRs), or any other company. At that point I would be an owner and receive dividends when the company was making profit. If you look at any openly traded company’s shareholders reports you will see a break down of who owns what percentage of the stock. Most of the time you notice that banks and insurance companies usually rank second or third as majority shareholders. They then sale these to their customers in the form of mutual funds and such. You may be one of <st1:City w:st=" /><st1:City w:st="on">Toyota</st1:City> trucks hit the lots with a big ole made in USA sticker on the window they will buy it. I think it will be some very tough competition for Ford and the others. Considering it’s going to designed and engineered by Americans that were just a little while ago working for one of the big three some of them probably laid off by the penny pinchers and will have something to prove.

Thank mrshultz, you seem to be one of the few people that understands this. You ask what is an American car? To me it has more to do with where the car was made and less to do with who's badge is on the front.

 

for me, the engineering is the key. Who designed it? Where?

I am from russia, got into US in 1999 and everybody were saying the jap are better cars. So my first was one was Nissan, then Toyota, then Ford; and only then I saw the difference.

Guys - Ford is engineered BETTER (no experience with GM).
Ford: stainless steel exhaust (vs steel on Toyota and Nissan). Result: newer even touched exhaust on 5 Fords i've owned and own now (Toyota and Nissan - regular muffler work)

Ford: 5 groows on axel booth (vs. 3 groows booths on Nissan and Toyota). As result, they NEVER fail (Nissan and Toyota - fail once in a while)
only have Fords from now on.

Ford: combined tranny and diff on FWD; change the ATF at once; Toyota: separate chamber for diff with its own drain and fill plugs - pain in the b***

List is going on and on.

My experience is the japanese-engineered vehicle might be better new but after 100k -150k starts to fell apart due to carefully designed low-duty parts. This is the result of japanese goverment making it very expencive to own a car older then 3-4 years. Therefore, they designed just for that.

Ford, on the other hand (no exp on GM), puts lot more strenth to spare into design thus producing heavy duty vehicle. At 100k or 150k you better off with Ford then Nissan or Toyota, and no matter where they were assembled.

Lets face it guys - japanies are not able to think new; they are masters to copy the design, clean it and improve, make it high quality but low duty; but not really new. Intel and Microsoft are not in Japan, there are here in US; as 80% of all new stuff invented on the planet.

den25

 

[QUOTE=den25]for me, the engineering is the key. Who designed it? Where?

"I am from russia, got into US in 1999 and everybody were saying the jap are better cars. So my first was one was Nissan, then Toyota, then Ford; and only then I saw the difference.

Guys - Ford is engineered BETTER (no experience with GM).
Ford: stainless steel exhaust (vs steel on Toyota and Nissan). Result: newer even touched exhaust on 5 Fords i've owned and own now (Toyota and Nissan - regular muffler work)"

That is at least 5 trucks in 7 years, not counting a Toyota and a Nissan. An average of one truck per year...

But the real point is this: This thread is about the impact on Ford trucks of Toyota entering the big truck segment. This was not intended to be a rant about who makes better trucks with each person listing the problems. I listed what I percieve to be some significant build quality issues with the current SD with the hope Ford takes the comming change in the market more seriously than it did when Toyota entered the segment now owned by the Camry. I hope Ford does respond with more than rehetoric, new badge licencing and more Country artists peddling schlock on the airwaves.

We need a couple of new cab chasis over the next 18 months. Daimler has come a long way... and a new 4500, builtin the US with a better drivetrain would be hard to ignore...

Here is hopeing the 07 is a great truck.

-Mike

 

the point is the Toyota was not; is not; and will not be (at least in the near future) "real work truck" for the reasons listed above. Who realize that, will buy Ford or GM truck for real work; other are buying Toyota to drive around town anyway. For the real truck you need strong axles rather then perfect gaps; engine torque rather then perfect paint. The market niche for "Japanese" manufacturers are independent suspentions, small economical low-torque high-hp engines. As long as they keep it that way, the trucks segment WILL NOT BE treatened by Toyota.

mschultz - there was not a list of problems of particular vehicle or owner but examples of better or worse engineering affecting the lifetime of vehicle. All those vehicles were and are used, < $5,000, most > 100k, some bought in not running condition, repaired and sold; that is why so many of them.

the other think - my opinion is of a person from different country; that is, you guys have GREAT domestic vehicles, so WHY people buy imports? I just do not get that, whatever "import" means (after all, without demand, Toyota would not be able to move the manufacturing into US).

The arguments for "global economy", "what made where", where profits go, are, IMO, irrelevant. If you driving a brand of vehicle from other country, you are not proud of your onw, as simple as that.

den25

 

I disagree. The management always blames unions for their mismanagement decisions and faulty forecasts.

It's always somebody else's fault, but not managements. And people like you completely buy into the spin created by fat cat managers.

The guy out there working on the line trying to provide food and a roof over his family's head, maybe put his kid through college...how is GM's and Ford's troubles HIS fault? Explain that to me please.

Did somebody put a gun to GM and Ford's head and say "Sign this UAW contract?" I highly doubt it.

GM and Ford should fire their highly paid accountants and lawyers first, who advised their management to sign that contract in the first place. Then they should fire their business forecasters, they sorry vehicle designers who have no imagination whatsoever and they they should fire their CEO's. All those guys make WAY more than that poor SOB on the line trying to feed his family.

I guess corporate spin-doctoring must be working. Lots of fools seem to believe all the anti-union drivel the media puts out these days.

You're gonna tell me that all the people at Delphi, Northwest, United Airlines and other companies who just lost their retirements can blame it on their unions? Get real man. Corporate america is out to slash costs, no matter what the price. Unions are just a convenient scapegoat.

 

I've said this before, and I'll say it again: Look around at your local municipality's vehicles. Yup- Ford and GM. Not many Japanense (some civic hybrids around here, that's it). Most are F-50's, Crown vics, Explorers, E-series, Silverado, Impala, Express, etc. No Toyota's. I know town governments look for the best value and lowest operating cost/maintenance costs, and for stuff run 12-24 hours a day, they look to the American companies. I don't think anyone has ever seen a Hino snowplow, I know people have seen Ford's and Internationals.

That should speak volumes. We have had few problems with our Fords, and whne those problems did arise, they were usually normal wear and tear and CHEAPER TO FIX than if it was on a Toyota because the parts weren't shipped from Japan.

Yes, Toyota will have a new 5.7L V8, and I'll bet money that it will be over 300HP, probably about 350ish. But what about torque? Japan can make 300HP V6's, but they have that at 8000RPM's and little torque. Thus my Taurus with 200HP will beat it around town b/c I have torque and max HP at 5500RPMs.

Sure old Toyota's run, but how well? How many have 300,000+ miles on them and are still used every day? Now count how many fords have 300,000+ miles on them and are used every day? Taxis (look at the odometer), E-series, F-150's, and of course Powerstrokes

OK, so what am I getting at? When you buy American, the money stays here even if the workers aren't. Japanese- not the case. For real heavy duty aplacations, count the Japanese vehicles in your area. Not many. We have some- contractors, roofers- every one has the body shot on them. Trim missing, body panels falling off, etc.

I refuse to buy a car with the name "Toy" especally when that car is made in Japan.

 

strong post, CTford
I think people are buying jap just to look cool. Not practical (maint cost, reliability), but cool. Especially outrageous are kids in Civics, wanna be racers driving crazy and doing funny mods.

den25

 

What I had intended to be a thread about how the new Toyota full size truck might inspire improvement in Ford’s build quality has turned into a series of semi-literate rants about who is better and incomprehensible assertions such as: Good build quality is incompatible with engine torque. “Golly Cletus, I sure ain’t gonna buy nuthin un-American”

After all that has been written about the demise of the big 2 and the growth of American plants built by Daimler, BMW, Toyota and Nissan (plants hiring US employees and supporting US communities) while the big two are in a free fall - somehow, amazingly, the globalization of the US economy has been lost on some of you. Even more amazing, after demonstrating a remarkable ability to adapt and innovate to meet the market, some writers seem to think that that even after taking-over market segment after market segment, the lock on the heavy duty light truck market is inviolable. Somehow, against all logic and evidence to the contrary, some think that Ford and GM are in a tail dive but still produce products superior to everyone else. News flash: Ford bought back a ton of 6.0 trucks because they, as much as it hurts a Ford man like myself to say it, THEY WERE LEMONS! Deal with it. Now, the 06 engines may be better and many of us have good engines (so far) and hope for the best- and yes, there are a lot of good things about the truck and I know the DuraMax has aluminum heads and the Dodge is built in Mexico- BUT THAT DOES NOT CHANGE THE FACT THAT FORD COULD BUILD A BETTER TRUCK IF THEY WERE NOT CUTTING EVERY PENNY OF COST OUT OF THEM.

I think that it is reasonable that for +$35k, Ford could align the panels during assembly. I think Ford could paint BOTH sides of the hood with the same level of finish. I think that Ford could paint their frames just like Dodge does. I think they could afford to use plastic interior trim that did not have seems left behind by a cheap mould. I am tired of buying crappy fit and finish just because the competition isn’t any better. And I hope that by entering the market with a big truck, Toyota will force Ford to pay more attention rather than simply using our truck market to prop up a company that is losing money everywhere else except finance. For you true believers: I am not saying that Ford does not make the best full sized truck right now. I believe it is the best truck and that is why we keep buying them. What I am saying is that it would be easy to make the truck better and given the fact that Toyota has pushed Ford and GM out of almost every single other market that once dominated, this is a good time to ask if this market will be any different. Will Ford meet the challenge here or, as in other sectors, fail and lost market share?

Here is the score: Ford and GM stock is rated deep into junk bond territory. Industry experts bet that one of the two is going to go out of business by the end of the next decade. Both companies have a lot of cash on hand due to the huge profits made on selling trucks and SUVs to fools like us for a lot more than they cost to produce. Problem is; Americans are suddenly realizing that they really do not need an Excursion to take little Mindy to soccer practice. SUV sales are in a free fall and if you take a look, there are factory rebates on every configuration of full size trucks. Around here, full size trucks sell for 10k below list. It is a sure sign that something is wrong when your product sells at 75% of retail.

The models that have demonstrated a less-elastic demand curve contain new technology, are better built and more efficient. Daimler is selling all of the new LX platform Chrysler and Dodge cars they can build because they are well-engineered and well built. DC has in-house technological innovation on their side. Ford has had to buy technology from other people. Some of that technology has been licensed from Toyota because Ford does not have anything comparable. That means, the half-backed, flag-waving, knuckle-dragging, racist, troglodyte who manages to scratch together enough high-cost credit to buy that new fuel-efficient Ford may well be contributing to Toyota’s bottom line. Even more ironic, the flag-waving patriot who plasters his new Dodge Cummins with the stars and stripes may well have sent his money first to Germany, then to Mexico. (Yes, even the Cummins engine- if built in the US, has a German fuel system).

But I digress.

The good news is that while Bill Ford doesn’t seem to understand that he faces the same problems Nasser had before him, build quality is dramatically improving. Despite the inane assertion above that paint and panel gaps don’t come with torque (Check out any supercharged Mercedes V-8 for torque numbers that make Ford/GM look downright wimpy) the new F-150 is a well built truck.

The point is- The big 2, for whatever reason you want to imagine, are losing market share and cutting workers. Meanwhile, new market entrants are building US production facilities and hiring Americans. The new jobs pay less and have fewer benefits than the old legacy contracts- but they are jobs and they are supporting families in this country.

If you have an opinion about how Ford could take the opportunity at the dawn of Toyota’s entry into the Heavy Duty light truck market to improve Ford trucks- This is the thread for your opinion. If you have a half-baked rant about why the soon to be #1 auto maker is all wrong- save it for the district meeting with your local representative of the congressional majority. (He will be the one asking for your vote in November and talking about why Iraq is a good idea and why the federal deficit will not hurt working American’s like you and your family).

Do you think new competition in the full-size truck market will encourage Ford to build a better truck in 07 (new SD truck line) or not?

Specifically, what would you do to improve your Super Duty truck if you could?

-Mike

 

1) We all know government always makes the best decisions CT.

2) Why did they stop making your Taurus? Was it because it became obsolete and people stopped buying them? And it was then replaced by the Fusion and the 500- neither of which appears to be selling to anyone. The ad campaign for the Fusion states “it grows on you.” What does that mean?
The Camry knocked off the Taurus as #1 selling US car years ago and has held the title ever since. Do you think the Camry became #1 because the Taurus is a better car? When Ford tried to make a fast Taurus, they bought an engine from Yamaha- How about that? A japanese engine in the same car model you own!

3) Your "local municipality" - the one you cite as the paradigm of good decision making- is now buying Hondas Hmmm. You don't see the irony here?

4) You make a good point, no Hino snowplows. But Toyota does not have experience making heavy trucks. But before you cite that as evidence of weakness- Toyota didn’t make large cars 2 decades ago. Now they are #1. Go figure. You see any new (not medium duty F series) Ford snow plows anymore? The reason you don't is because Ford couldn't make any money on the division and it was sold to Sterling.

5) Exactly how does the money "stay here" when dividends are paid to global shareholders (many of whom are overseas), profit is not reinvested in new manufacturing facilities, and workers are cut because ford and GM are losing market share?

6) How much of "part cost" is related to shipping? Do you know where the engine for the Taurus SHO came from? (Yamaha - Japan) Do you know where the wire harness for my super duty trucks comes from? (Mexico) How about front drive axles for Explorers? Are they more expensive to fix because they came from France than GM parts sourced in the US? Is my wiring harness cheaper because of global labor price fluctuations or more expensive because of the shipping costs you cite? If US parts are cheaper, how come US parts for my Ford trucks (cam position sensors, for example) are just as expensive as BMW cam position sensors?

7) You don’t think the Toyota NASCAR pushrod V-8’s are going to have just as much torque as Toyota wants it to have? Is it possible that Toyota has made small-high reving engines because they are (typically) more fuel efficent than large displacement engines?

-Mike

 

Great example. With the latest factory Toyota will have ~32k employees and Honda just above 20k. And yes GM and Ford should lay-off 70k. Great gain for US workers. Also I heard about many tax benefits offered to Toyota just to open one factory. Union?

 

Now that I have been grinding away at everyone about my concern that Ford executives are not going to take the threat posed by Toyota seriously, I spent more time looking into the '07 Tundra.

From the photos released by Toyota, it looks like they are entering the
F-150 / Nissan / GM 1500 market but not (yet) anything heavier. The Toyota frame is interesting in that it is much more radically formed than the frames we are used to seeing in light trucks. The frame is formed radically left to right, rather than a straight shot front to read. Yet it appears that the frame stops at the front of the lower A arms - it does not appear like there is much in the front of the truck. This may make sense for the 1/2 ton market, but I don't see mounting our PTO winches on the front of that new Toyota frame.

Next, the axles and the 5 bolt hubs look pretty light- not exactly 10k lbs. and up material. And of course there is that weekender 6' bed- no service body or respectable flatbed is sitting in place of that little fella.

So perhaps Toyota is setting up to take a shot at the meat of the full size truck market (1/2 ton market) but not the heavy end of the market. Or at least not with the components assembled beneath the '07 Tundra prototype truck currently on display.

Meanwhile, I have just finished a great review of the new Explorer. Sounds like it is worth checking out. While Ford lost title to #1 selling SUV to GM last year, the new Explorer has many of the updates that have made the F-150 a continued class leader.

This afternoon I spent some time around the GM mid-sized Canyon- And I was more impressed than I expected- while new, it felt sold with good fit and finish. Nice interior materials- strong inline engine- good assembly quality. GM is clearly working hard on improving initial quality.

I hope Ford applies the same quality update found in the F-150 and the Explorer to the Ranger- The little truck is showing its age and the drive train needs updating- The Explorer engine (4.6?) would be a great place to start.

Suggestions for the new Superduty?

1) An available wire harness for goosenecks from the factory- stub it up behind the cab or mid frame/bed- this way the slide-in camper people could use it for their applications as well.

2) An available (low amp) 110-volt supply for laptops and other chargers.

3) Diff locks. (Reliable diff locks)

4) Keep manual hub locks available

5) Make block heaters standard on the diesel again

6) Return to steel bed caps

7) ?

 

All diesels are fitted with block heaters - it just depends which state you live in as to whether you recieve the cord for it.
If you don't live in one of those states, it costs about $20 at your local International dealer. But thats rather unimportant...

 

said the Union member

 

I look at what the situation is, and evaluate. I'm not buying into anyone's opinion.

People like me? What am I then? Please explain.

Contracts, and certain aspects of contracts are voted upon by members of that specific union....it's not 100% the company's fault if a failure to produce a decent contract was made. At the same time, I'm certainly not saying it's completely the member's fault. Please understand that.

You admit right in that quote that it is infact the UAW's fault! The unions should be willing to compromise more than on previously signed contracts. The same goes for "management." Both sides need to work together...it's not one vs the other.

Or...the union reps should be fired. They pushed for that specific contract in the beginning correct? Why should it be the companies fault that contracts were unfair, or near-sighted?

I'm basing my opinion off of my own personal experience, friends working in unions, and what I've seen on this site. I don't believe I'm a fool.

Again, if both sides had of worked together...




There still seems to be this huge emotional detachment of workers to the people higher up by some bias people. I do not understand this. Unions worked great 4 decades ago...but their usefulness has deteriorated, IMO.
Please understand I'm not blaming the situation the domectis companies are in completely on unions. That would simply not be true.

 

there is a lot of controversy among follow writers about why Ford is moving production into Mexico while Toyota - into US, and which one is less of an evel.

The real reason why Toyota is doing that, is a "chicken tax", 1973 treaty, result of the tax war with Germany. This 25% tax is applied to light trucks imported in US. Manufactured in US are tax-free. "Manufactured in US" means meeting the minimum domestic parts content criteria.

some links:
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0507/17/B01-250138.htm
http://lugar.senate.gov/pressapp/record.cfm?id=249503

Therefore imported light trucks are not competitive on US market. As a result, foreign auto manufacturing could not offer competitive light trucks during initial expantion to the US market during 80s, when japaneseaoutomakers made theyr reputation in passengers cars segment. Instead they had to make the money first on what they could (pass cars) and then in the middle of 90s started to move the light trucks production into US. So the "Toyota manufacturing in US benefiting the US economy", seemingly appealing the some fellow writers, is solely result on the fact that Toyota had been forced to do that by US government.

Ford North America, on the other hand, is a domestic company and able to move production into other countries without paying tax.

The other interestng result of "chicken tax" is a born of crossover segment. Check it out - often SUV of japanese manufacturers are officially CARS, while the Crysler PT Cruiser is officially LIGHT TRUCK. The other reason for that is the "average fuel economy" requirement for every automaker, but that is a different story.

BTW, the very reason the "Big 2" are suffereing right now is exactly the same why the japanese manufacturers expanded into US market in 80s - it is the 2-3 times GAS PRICES JUMP in 1979-1983.

check out the link with world oil price here:
http://www.wtrg.com/prices.htm

It appears that people in US are driving gas guzzlers unnessesary when the gaz is cheap and start to look for alternatives (that is smaller vehicles from japanese manufacturers) when it "suddenly" jumps. It happened in 1979 and it happening now, that is all. But you know what - use the vehicle adequate for the purpose and it would not happen.

den25