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2003 Super Duty - V10 - Ping/Spark Knock

 
  #31  
Old 02-23-2006, 10:45 AM
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OK, I was asking FiveO about his truck, but I've got this to say:

Does the pinging happen under 1/4-3/4 throttle, and go away when at WOT? Or does it do it at WOT (wide-open-throttle) too?

If it's a mid-throttle ping, that points at the EGR system not flowing properly. Oh wait, my '01 doesn't even HAVE an EGR Does yours?
 
  #32  
Old 02-23-2006, 10:11 PM
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Took her out today and I have to think it might be gone.....my driving today wasn't ideal for listening to it, tomarrow I will go out with the intent to hear it if I can.

My truck has 55K on her. And I know for sure it's preignition/detonation type of sound, I used to have nitrous on my 5.0 mustang and would hear the same exact thing if I raced her without taking a lil timing out of it or run race gas.
 
  #33  
Old 02-23-2006, 10:15 PM
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I'll have to check the throttle position...I'd have to say I can't replicate the WOT thing cuz it kicks it down a gear and it goes away due to the higher rpms/less "load" per rev. I'd bet it's ping like crazy towing with 87 octane.
I'll switch back to 87 when this tank is done....probabally Wed/thurs.

EGR...hnmmmmm?? I dont know.
 
  #34  
Old 02-23-2006, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by PurerockRacing
I've checked all that out on my truck already. Heat shields on the exhaust are all tight, nothing rattles. The converter access plate has a pc. of rubber wedged in there to keep it from any potential rattling. My noises still have not gone away. My noises arise at 3000 rpms and above under load, specifically if I down shift into 2nd. going uphill. 3500-4000 rpms, big time ping!
Have you done a fuel pressure test on this truck ? idle and running
You need someone to chk the fuel trims after it goes to open loop in the computer.
Have you chkd the plugs for color since changing them? Take a look?
Did you buy this truck used? did you pull a oasis on the truck to see what had been done at other dealers for maitenance? Could have had a reflash of the pcm.
What elevation are you at also?

You may have a case of wrist pin slap under load.and your sure its not valve train noise under load.

This a auto right ,have you chkd for a flexplate cracking under the inspection cover?
Rich
 
  #35  
Old 02-23-2006, 11:23 PM
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Ford uses the EGR system to help with pre detination. Rather than pull timing to controll Knock they found they could add more exhust gas making the fuel mixture less vollitile, and leave the timing advance. The stadedgy is that this makes more power.
 
  #36  
Old 02-24-2006, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by 68 351 bronc
Ford uses the EGR system to help with pre detination. Rather than pull timing to controll Knock they found they could add more exhust gas making the fuel mixture less vollitile, and leave the timing advance. The stadedgy is that this makes more power.
My first experience with a ping that wouldn't go away was my friend's Chevy from the late 70's.

EGR was disconnected, as soon as I reconnected it, ping was gone.

It's not only Ford.

Actually, the EGR was made to reduce peak combustion temperatures reducing NOx emissions. The fact that it helps the engine not ping at mid-throttle is a side-effect.
 
  #37  
Old 02-24-2006, 07:52 PM
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I have a 2000 v10 and a friend hass a 99 both have the same symptoms they ping when pulling hard and wound up to 3000 to 4000 rpm mine will stop if I back out of the throttle a little my solution was to turn up the radio
 
  #38  
Old 02-24-2006, 07:57 PM
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The 93 octane cured it....now to find out what's really going on....
 
  #39  
Old 02-24-2006, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Five0guy
The 93 octane cured it....now to find out what's really going on....
The dealer can retard the timing, but that usually means loss of power.

How's your coolant temp looking?
 
  #40  
Old 02-25-2006, 06:04 AM
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FiveOGuy

Does it knock/ping all the time, or only after the engine has warmed up. I know one of the causes of predetonation is excessive carbon deposits in the piston chamber. The way it was explained to me is that the carbon deposits retain heat so when the cylinder goes through the cumbustion cycle the heat retained in the deposits actually ignite the fuel before the ignition spark. It's the equivalent of having your timing advanced 10 degrees.

My 2001 was pinging under load under 2500 and above 3500. When I bought it it had 73k on the odometer. I did a massive cleaning of the intake/injector system and it fixed it.

I let the engine warm up and then ran a can of Sea Foam through the vacuum hose; disconnected the air intake from the throttle body and sprayed a whole can of intake cleaner in the intake causing the engine to die; let the engine sit for 20 minutes to soak the pistons and allow the cleaners to do the job in the piston chamber; then start it back up and fog the neighborhood for misquitoes; the last thing I did was do a BG injector service. Once I was done I unplugged the batter overnight to let the computer reset and then drove the heck out of it the next day to make sure the computer ran through all its cycles, and make sure the knock was gone.

It worked and now the engine runs much smoother than when I bought it. I found it is very difficult to get that carbon out of the piston chambers.
 
  #41  
Old 02-25-2006, 11:29 AM
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Coolant temp is normal...

I can't be 100% sure but I think it doesn't ping when she's cold.

I may have one of the local garages do the superduper top end cleanings where they have a machine hooked into the fuel rail and pump some cleaner through it (this is a very simplified old memory on how it basically works) they say it's specifically to remove the carbon in the combustion chamber.

Looks like I'm 1/2 way through the current tank of 91.5 octane (mix) I'll go back to 87 once I run another 100 miles or so....it'd be interesting to see what the minimum octane required to keep the knocking away will be.

Or I could just hook up a methanol injection kit.........
 
  #42  
Old 02-28-2006, 04:51 PM
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I don't believe there is much chance of a heavy carbon deposit on the pistons of a Fuel Injected engine. Carbon makes for a great abrasive. I wouldn't want it broken loose in my V-10. The effects could be a lot worse than paying an extra $4 per tank of gas for the Premium.
Get a reading on the timing first. Rebuilding the V-10 due to the detergents and carbon you will run through it will be very costly. If there are deposits on top of the pistons a properly tuned and running engine should burn them off over time.
 
  #43  
Old 02-28-2006, 07:59 PM
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Carbon deposits happen pretty regularly in people who run premium fuel in engines that don't require it. The fuel burns ever so slighty slower and less complete than the lower octane fuel and leaves deposits in the combustion chamber. I have several customers in my gas station who run 93 octane in low compression engines that regularlly call for 87 octane and now they can't stop using the 93 otherwise they get bad pinging, it's called octane dependancy. I won't let my truck get like that despite that I don't even pay for gas and can have any octane I want.
The dealer supposedly ran the whole deal testing on her, hence the $85 bill, and said fuel pressure, timing and ignition were all within spec.
 
  #44  
Old 03-01-2006, 08:25 AM
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so, without taking the vehicle to a service shop or dealer, what is the easiest way to flush out the cylinders/heads. I saw the name Sea Foam mentioned? What exact is that? I've made a few changes to my engine, and will test it out this weekend towing a trailer. If my ping is still there, guess it's time to flush out the engine. am slowly running out of things to check.
 
  #45  
Old 03-01-2006, 08:23 PM
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Sea Foam is a liquid cleaner that comes in a can. Do a web search and you will find information about it. I found one web site that described the method of cleaning your intake system and it worked for me. I was able to find Sea Foam at Advanced Auto Parts here. I also use GUMOUT Intake Cleaner at the recommendation of my mechanic. One of the methods I use is called a "piston soak" where I put enough cleaner into the intake where it causes the engine to sputter and die. I then leave the engine to "soak" for about 20 minutes and crank it up. My mechanic also does the BG treatment through my fuel rails for me about every 20k. According to the directions from BG you also let the engine sit for about 20 minutes after it dies to allow the cleaner to work.

YES, carbon deposits can accumulate in piston chambers on fuel injected vehicles. NO, removing those deposits cannot harm your engine, they are dissolved and blown out through your exhaust system. YES, cheap fuel, regardless of octane rating, can allow these deposits to accumulate faster. The more expensive name brand fuels just have more cleaners and additives to prevent this. The situation FiveOGuy described as "Octane Dependancy" I believe is actually the same carbon buildup issue which has been masked and hidden by the regular use of higher octane fuel. Although what he said about higher otane fuel not burning as completely does make sense.

The one thing you have to make sure is you use a cleaner that will not harm your catalletic converter or your oxygen sensors. Also, don't be alarmed when your truck blows a large amount of white smoke from the exhaust for a few minutes, that's just the cleaner going through and the carbon burning out.

If all else fails then it could be the EGR. Usually when the oxygen sensors fail it creats a lean situation where the engine looses power. If someone knows how to properly operate a scanner you can actually read the output fromthe sensors and tell when they are in error.
 

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