Hi everyone. I havent been here for almost 9 months or so. Oh well I jusy got my 97 F-350 running again. I sold my previouslly lightly modded 460 EFI engine to someone that I beat in a quick stoplight run. I was tempted to put a Cummins 600 5.9 engine that I have aquired from a wreck. But I couldnt wait. So I decided to build up another 460. The engine started as a stock 97 van engine that I bought for 200 dollars, owner said it had a light knock. Was still worth because it was complete. Oh well while I was tearing into the engine I found a SK 1/2 inch Deep Socket residing in an intake port, must have been there a while because it was worn. I then decided to stretch the envelope. The low mileage bottom end received a dose of H beam Rods, Speed Pro Dome Pistons at 10.5 CR, 270 Comp Cam. The F3te EFI heads were scored from the sk socket. I then max ported the heads to almost paper thin walls, bigger valves and screw in studs came next. It was then fitted with 270 Comp Springs and Crane Gold Race Rockers,7/16 Moly Pushrods. The EFI intake also received severe treatment in a form of relentless and uncivilized porting. The oil pan is a 8qt Moroso unit, I was dissapointed with its construction. It was welded together withn a 2 inch overlap at the rails and no provision for the late model L/H dipstick. I modded it by cutting off the excess overlap and put in the dipstick provision. The EFI system also got a treatment of Cell Shock, 42lb FMS Green Tops, Interactive Mass Air, Ram Air from the holes in the bumper. MSD-10, NOS, Hooker Super Comp Headers, Dual 3 inch Flow Masters 50 Series.

Question?, has any one tried a coil per cylinder on a 460 Ford. I am looking for a wider control of ignition timing due to the high compression ratio. Such as MSD? Called MSD says its great, but looking for owners feedback instead.Thanks

 

If you wait about three months, I'll have Ford DIS on mine. I have it spread out on a workbench, but I'm slow going because my wife and I have a newborn, I get about 2 hours a week of "free time" and have been spending it rebuilding my riding mower deck.

 

Check out the thread "EEC-V for last 460's". It's on this 460 forum. It's only a month or so old so you will be able to find it easily. They talk a little about the EDIS and one guy has a link with some pictures of his eec-v maf 460 transplant etc.

 

What a PITA it was to find it.... so for everyone else's convienence....

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/s...light=EDIS+460

 

frederick and 96f350rcsrw460zf,


Thanks for the info. I guess for now I'll stick around and see how it goes. For now I am trying to fabricate a custom throttle body adapter to accept a single bore 90mm unit and a Powerstroke style air cleaner, Diesel radiator support and radiator for the much needed extra cooling.

Thanks

 

The diesel radiator support is almost identical to the gas radiator support - it has extra holes for the intercooler, easily drilled, and an extra bracket mount somewhere on the driver's side for who knows what. Other than that, they are close enough that you can make it work.

You can also get an aftermarket radiator support for about $100 or thereabouts. I had to replace mine recently because the entire bottom rotted off, so I replaced mine with a taiwan knock-off of the diesel core support. And I test fitted the powerstroke intercooler, and it attaches right up, so I put the intercooler back in teh attic to protect it. All the gas-truck bits bolted right up, no problem.

Throttle body adaptors aren't too difficult to make... I've done many, and always done it the hard, manual way. I esentially take an aluminum plate, or block, and using the gaskets for the old and new throttle bodies, make a template, drill out the holes, then use a large holesaw to whittle out the middle, then hand file it for smoothness. If the center bores are radically different in size, you can bore the smaller hole all the way through, and the larger one about half way (drill the larger one first so you can reuse the pilot hole), then hand file the difference off for a reasonably smooth transfer from small to large, or large to small, depending.

I used to do the shaping with a dremel, but it takes too long and the kicking of the dremel bit is irritating. A large rasp file bites into the aluminum fast enough you can do some serious shaping. Since it's a large hole, you can move the file easily, unlike with head porting where a dremel, or a dremel like tool is more useful.

 

Frederick,

Yes youre right. but unfortunately I bought the 95 to 97 powerstroke radiator which is a tall and deep versus short and wide used on some diesels. Since I was stuck with the PSD radiator which cost nearly 400 dollars, I decided to buy the corresponding "used" support to fit that unit. The Powerstroke radiator support has a U shape at the bottom that fits between the front frame horns versus straight as used on gas and some diesels.

My other excuse is that I hope to install that '05 Cummins 600 5.9 engine as soon I have the funds to finish it. The 5.9 motor would probably appreciate the taller PSD unit. I plan to "erk" the Cummins into the 800 to 1000 H.P range with a Piers Diesel Mega Twins turbo set-up and by O-ringing the head and block. Unfortunately the fuel system is a common rail which is great but limited in availability of performance parts. The race fuel system is still under R & D.

Im a little confused, I see that you mentioned a modified throttle body and a Powerstroke intercooler. Are you building a turbocharged or a high boost supercharged Big Block 460 EFI? If so you must have an awesome project going. I once built a twin turboed 460EFI with two turbos off of a Grand National 3.8 SEFI. That equals to 7.6 which is close enough to a 7.5 460 but I never realized a Mass Air Conversion kit was available at that time in about 1999 os so, so I sold it due to map sensor and fuel delivery, driveability woes. The 3 inch log style manifold I fabricated took forever to fabricate. Let me know how your 460 turns out, might try the boost option later.

As far as my throttle body, I used a 3/8 steel plate, since I never welded aluminum before. I then took a 5inch aluminized exhaust tubing and stepped on one side into an oval. I will try your idea also. Thanks

 

Ouch, that's right, 95ish was the crossover year for the different style intercooler, I forgot that detail.

In that case, I'd have sold it on ebay and acquired another, or tack welded on little brackets to accomodate the unit.

The sad thing I went through this aggrevation, and I may actually not need the intercooler after all. I'll know once I toss the 500cid in there and get some tuning time. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of that at the moment.

Regarding the fuel rails... can't something be fabricated from another diesel? My diesel knowledge is almost nil...

I'm doing something... um... weird.

460 stroked to 500cid (503 actually), 6.6:1 c/r, redline below 4K. Industrial heads (off things like the 429 in the F500, combines, generators, etc) which have the EFI pattern on the intake side, and fairly large ports on the exhaust side. Then removed as much material as I could. Bigger valves, ceramic coat everything, etc. The cam is a little hotter than stock, but probably more conservative than I want. It's a towing cam, so there is no overlap worth mentioning. The pair of turbos are T04 hybrids, so the exhaust sides are sized well enough that they should spool up very quickly, and the fresh air side is a little larger, hopefully giving more boost.

This will go into my F350 crewcab, replacing the almost dead, 300+k mile 351W that Ford put there in 1993.

Going to use the factory EFI intake, though I'm expecting it to be the bottle neck and I'll either braze something larger out of alumium, or possibly port the heck out it as well. The 460 gooseneck is already there, though I might have to enlarge the openings where the throttle body should have been, then bore equal sized holes in my oddly shaped dual-throttle body plenum. The TB's are off 92-93 Crown Victorias, and the pair of them are silly large compared to the stock 460 dual TB unit. Last week I was working out cardboard templates to make linkages for this, but never finished.

Because the c/r is so low, I don't think I'm going to get enough boost with the turbos I selected to run into detonation problems, with or without the intercooler.

This project actually is a recycled idea... years ago I built a twin-turbo 451 stroker 75 Dodge with GM EFI, and I really didn't need the PS intercooler which is in the attic at the moment, and that c/r was almost 8:1. but not quite. And the old Dodge broke just about everything behind the flywheel at one point or another if I took the stock tires off and put on dot-legal drag radials. That engine was built to whine a bit... all the breakage occured over 5000 RPm. Anyway, I stripped the EFI harness, computer, turbos homemade intake, and the intercooler when I sold it just before I moved to NJ about four years ago, since I couldn't take two pickups with me, with all the other vehicles I had to haul down here from CT.

It's taking me forever to finish the engine... I had expected to have it in by this past april, and spend this summer tuning and experimenting. But alas, it just hasn't worked out that way lmao.

Let's just say the 75 Dodge, dispite it's all-steel, extended cab long bed weight and amazing aerodynamics (ha!), was absolutely fun to drive in every sense of the word. While I repaired all of the body rust, I didn't really go over the suspension and frame well enough (I just painted all of that stuff with rustoleum because I wanted it on the road) and unfortunately where there was rust, under hard acceleration I developed tears in those areas. Like I said, everything behind the flywheel broke at least once, and spring perches and all sorts of stuff broke as well. But if it held together, it was fun playing with it...

This time around I'm using Ford EEC instead of GM ECM, because I want to learn and play with something different. It will take longer but I'm okay with that. I had to go mass air (MAF) because I wasn't able to find a suitable tuning program for the speed density design, otherwise I'd have recycled the EEC that's there. I have no problem tuning forced induction with speed density, nor am I offended by batch injection. However, I couldn't find a tool so I'm converting over to mass air just to have access to all the mustang tuning software choices that there are. I ultimately went with the Craig Moates stuff, which should arrive in about a week. I just ordered it, actually.

On the dodge, fuel delivery was difficult, yet easy. Since the truck had a carb, there was nothing in the tank, so I begged a friend to tig weld together a "hat" that replaces the fuel sending unit and the pickup/returns, with one float and two pickups and one return, all larger diameter tubing than stock. I slapped that in, and drew from the two sends fuel pumped by a pair of in-line paxton pumps. Since the intake was homemade, I had three injectors on each intake runners, and used "stock" injectors in all three positions. The injectors closest to the heads were the "used always" injectors, which gave me idle, and below 2500 RPM fuel. Then, at 2500RPM, the second tier of injectors, driven by a mosfet-driver I soldered together, triggered by the first tier of injectors, would double the fuel. To compensate for this sudden doubling of fuel, in the fuel maps at 2500 RPM I seriously cut pulsewidth so the transition from one tier <2500 to >= 2500 two tiers, was reasonably smooth. I probably spent six months on making that work reasonably correctly. There were still situations where right at that crossover point, I'd get too much fuel and the engine would be unhappy, but that was only on deceleration. Acceleration worked out pretty good. Both fuel rails had their own regulator, and shared a return back to the fuel tank. The third tier of injectors, closest to the rectangular plenum, were also batch driven, but they were fed a 50/50 mix of isopropol and distilled water, triggered by a knock sensor. This way if detonation was heard, isopropol and water was injected to compensate. I really thought this was a great idea, however I didn't take into consideration that this independent system seriously threw off my air / fuel curve randomly - as detonation wasn't all that common, but when it occured the thing went nuts with the water/alky. So I had to find a way of triggering that from injector outputs of the GM ECM, so like the 2nd tier, I built another mosfet driver box and triggered it just like the second tier - except it started to fire in sync with the first tier, if the rpms were over 3700 (I think, maybe 3800). After another 2-3 months of tuning, I had this working "darn good" to about 5700 RPM, with 6500 being redline. Over 5700 RPM things just got too hokey and unstable... so, since the Dodge D200 was totally breaking parts well below that RPM, and I had more than enough power below that point, I just whimsically decided that 5600 RPM was the new ECM redline, and ignition was cut at that point. I moved the redline indicator on the tach down a bit, and didn't think about it again. I never got to dyno the truck, and I really wish I had. It was a heavy beast, with a very poor suspension design, so I had some traction/stability issues even with drag radials. When it hooked up, it was amazing. When it didn't hook up, it was outright dangerous.

The other neat thing is I used an aluminum intercooler off a Volvo, saab, or something along those lines. It was a very small intercooler, and I mean VERY small. I brazed it into the homemade plenum, and out of coincidence, the intercooler ports that normally go between the turbo and the intake, were the same size as the upper radiator hoses - so guess what I did And at lower rpm points the intake charge was definately heated, rather than cooled, however at full throttle, full boost, full tilt... the cooling system actually did cool the intake charge significantly, which is where you want the intercooling functionality. Because the radiator was an aftermarket howe unit (very large) and I had a several gallon peterson resivior tank, I had the cooling capacity to do this. I am probably not doing that this time around.

Anyway, my F350 crewcab is essentially the same project, with more Ford bits involved, hopefully utilizing "lessons learned" from the 200 mistakes I made on the dodge truck.

While I can kinda weld aluminum (I can get the parts to stick at least, but I get no points for attractiveness for sure...) I find it much easier to braze it together with an oxy torch. The lower lens shade required for torch work makes it much easier to what you are doing, and brazing of course is a lower temperature process anyway, so warping the aluminum or having it drip off your welding table onto your leg is also minimized .

 

Just as an FYI, long time ago I built up a 4.1L twin turbo V6 for a mid-engined sports car, and that engine also had a homemade intake manifold. Well, I really should just say "supersized plenum". Essentially it was a large, upside down trapazoid-shaped plenum, that had intake runner holes cut out. No runners of any kind, essentially it was a huge box that filled the intake valley area, and stuck up about 4". The injector bungs were on the outside of the box, perpendicular to the head surfaces, angled down at the "holes" in the plenum.

And it worked absolutely fine. Under boosted conditions, I belive intake runner length is fairly irrelevent.