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Brazilian Y-Blocks, part II

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  #16  
Old 07-05-2005, 08:18 PM
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Mike, the V8 60 did have 3 mains. I don't know that this is any sort of a problem, tho -- those cranks were pretty good. The big difference is in the oil pump: on a regular V8, there is a gear and an idler gear at the back of the cam that drives the oil pump.

On a V8 60, the oil pump is mounted to the front main bearing cap and drives off of the crank gear that spins the cam. I can't think of anything else that was different from the bigger V8.

I can't recall and am away from my books, but it seems to me that the Bobby Meeks built V8 60 that went into Dean Bachelor's and Alex Xydias' "So CAl Special" streamliner put out something like 120 hp. I do know that they ran methanol in it and maybe they bored it over the 135 stock inches, too.

But I would guess that the Ardun head conversion would have easily got 1 hp per cu in as a possibility. The Ardun heads on the V8 were quite capable in terms of power production.

When we lived in Montana, it was always my dream to swap a V8 60 into an old ****** Jeep. Consider that it would have replaced an L or F head four of the same cubes. It would have been much smoother than that old boat anchor that Jeep used!

Please, Lucas -- whatever you have on those Simca V8s, please let us know!
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  #17  
Old 07-10-2005, 10:13 PM
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Sorry for the late reply... Iíve been away from the computer for a while.
Iím sorry, but I donít have much information about those hemi Simcas.
Those are not popular engines here. Simca did not have a good reputation here in Brazil.
Too many electrical problems and they rusted out quickly.
But, I can try to get some info on those engines. A friend of mine worked at the Simca plant. He was one of the pilots who tested those cars. Iíll ask him some questions.
If you want, make a list of everything you want to know and Iíll ask him.
A junkyard close by had one of those engines the last time I went there. I asked how much he wanted for it, and it was around 100,00Ö
As soon as I get some information about these engines I'll post here.
Best regards,
Lucas (Lobo)
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  #18  
Old 07-11-2005, 08:42 PM
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Lucas:

What I'd be most interested in is what the valve gear looks like under the rocker covers. The old Ardun V8 60 mechanism had a pushrod that operated the intake rocker, but for the exhaust, there was a pushrod that ran from the lifter to an intermidiate rocker arm on the intake rocker shaft, and then a second pushrod that went across the top of the head and operated the exhaust rocker arm.

I would also be interested in knowing whether the heads were made of aluminum or iron, what sort of carburetion they used, and what the power ratings were. But the rocker arm arrangement would be of greatest interest to me.

Thanks, Lucas!
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  #19  
Old 08-05-2005, 03:57 PM
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Over on Club Hot Rod, a post by Emi-Sul was interesting. He has imported a V-8 60 OHV motor from Brazil. It has ALUMINUM hemi heads. The stats he gave are:
147 cid
140 HP
151 Ft lbs
8.5:1 CR
He put a Holley 500 2 barrel on it, and has movie link of it running. I couldnt pull up the link however.
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  #20  
Old 08-05-2005, 05:21 PM
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Extremely, positively COOL! And, it sounds quite awesome, too!

For anyone, here's the link to the thread, he has two files to check out:

http://www.clubhotrod.com/t15426.html

The original Ardun V8 60 heads that I've seen pics of have intermediate exhaust rockers and pushrods, not the big eshaust rockers this one has.

Still it is a very cool engine and big huge thanks to 46f100 for sharing !!!!!!!
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  #21  
Old 08-11-2005, 07:19 PM
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I was out of town for a while and just got home.
Hereís what my friend told me.
There are quite a few different things if you compare it to the early Simca engines.
The pistons are not flat (he said itís a true hemi engine), camshaft is different, a few things on the block, intake manifold and carburetor. The rockers, lifters, etc were designed for this engine. He even said the name of the guy who did it, but I forgot.
He also said that Simca engines were not good. Some of them would leave the factory burning oil.
He compared the Simcas to the Yugos, and said that you would win a golden watch if you ran 2000 miles without burning oil.
The carburetor was another problem on this engineÖ
And thatís why most people threw away the original engine and installed a GM 151 on those carsÖ

Well, thatís what he said. I know nothing about these engines. Iíve never even seen one runningÖ
Sorry for taking so long to post an answer.

By the way, the engine that was on the junkyard here where I live is still there. But now the water pump is missing.

Best regards,
Lucas (Lobo)
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Old 11-07-2005, 07:54 PM
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Brazilian Y blocks part II

Hi, my first post on this site. Hope I can make some useful contributions - I tend to store all sorts of obscure automotive facts in my head.

Lucas (Lobo)

The 'father' of the emi-sul was Jacques Pasteur who was head of Simca do Brasil in the 1960s. The engine, I believe, was introduced at the Salao in 1966 and was phased out in late 1969 after Chrysler were told they had a Ford engine in the Simcas.

I would be very interested to get hold of one of these engines. If you have any further info, or can help in any way, it sure would be appreciated if you would contact me. I have enabled access to my direct e-mail address

My last Ford truck was a 1932 Roadster Pickup. I also had a 1932 Ford Australian roadster 'ute' body which I subsequently sold to a guy in Pennsylvania - he is putting a 24 stud French Flathead (ex military) into it.

A friend of mine has a 1955 F100 which he bought when he was 13 years old - it was his first vehicle. It currently sits at my place, sporting a genuine Boss 351 engine. This should be some truck when it is finished.

If any one is interested I have further information on the inspiration and origin of the Ardun hemispherical head - Pre WW II. Also how the Ardun head was copied and adapted in the 1960s in California to fit on a Small Block Ch*vy - pah, pah, - wash my mouth out with soap and water!!

Responding to the posting by wild.bunch on the V8 60 history, and maybe filling in a couple of blanks, it was also supplied to France from 1936-1939 for the short lived Matford vehicles (which looked like scaled down 1935-1939 American Fords) - a collaboration between Mathis of Alsace Lorraine and Ford. After WW II Matford (Mathis) was taken over by Simca - there is the missing link on the origin of the V8 60 and how Simca came to get hold of it.

At the same time, the V8 60 was supplied to Ford of Britain for the V8 Pilot a car that looked like a scaled down Tudor 1936 Ford sedan. This continued in production until 1953. It was in Britain that the need for the Ardun heads came about and as a direct result these heads came into being. I will expand on that and give a potted history if anyone requests it.

Happy to have found this hardcore enthusiast's site

"Guido" (NetFerret)
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  #23  
Old 11-07-2005, 09:19 PM
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Ferret, Dont know if you saw the post above, but in August a guy on www.clubhotrod.com had a complete running V-60 OHV hemi for sale. He was from Portland. The motor he imported from Brazil, and he was feeling out demand to import more. He posted under the name Emi-Sul . You should be able to find him.
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  #24  
Old 11-07-2005, 10:27 PM
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Brazilian Y blocks part II

Thanks 46yblock

I spoke with this guy already a couple of days ago and that engine is sold. I have both the video clips of that engine. His price seems to include a couple of round trip air fares to Brazil and that is just for a rebuildable core. He says he is going down to Brazil again next month, however, I was hoping to find a more 'real world' priced example. It would seem that these were built in the thousands, so there should be a few around - even if it means buying a car to get the engine and trans. These have separate bellhousings and were all 3 speed stick except for around 2200 GTX models which had a 4 spd. The blocks are beefed up but the 3 main bottom end is still the Achilles heel.

I also talked to a guy who is putting a pair of these heads on a U.S. V8 60 block for a vintage midget and he is putting in steel mains caps or a girdle which he has been doing for 20 years on full size flatheads as well as planning on having a billet stroker crank made. Sounds like this might be the solution to the bottom end problem. Don't think I like the idea of his 17:1 pistons though!!!
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  #25  
Old 11-07-2005, 11:16 PM
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Granatelli reported turning 8000 in his V8 60s, and tho he seems to have some problem with flatulence, I would guess that the bottom end is fairly stout. My understanding is that the big Arduns were limited by the stock cam diameter and the low ratio rockers. Maybe this could be remedied by doing a "Kenny Kloth", but I'm not sure at all what the ratios for the V8 60 Arduns were. My understanding is that Cotton Werksman researched the origin of V8 60 Arduns, and found that East Coast midget racers approached Duntov for them, and he drew them up and had them built in Germany, where things were made cheaply in post war years. The figures I am seeing quote 165 on gas and 200 on alcohol. That doesn't seem to outrageous for a v8 60 crank, especially considering that midget racers were always trying to get the last bit of weight off of them, to get the motors to zing quicker off of the turns. There is no pin overlap (1.4" between journal and main surfaces) but all flatheads had beefy and heavy cranks, and Ford's casting of cranks was very advanced for its day -- something that other makers couldn't duplicate until the 70s.

The Simca I really like with the V8 60 is the post war Comete, which is like a 49-51 Ford hardtop, channeled and shrunk down. Looks great.

Since Duntov worked for Tony Lago, who specialized in hemi headed conversions of existing 6s in his fabulous cars, and since Lago had done a prewar stint at Pratt and Whitney, I calculate the evolutionary clade to descend from a P-W aircraft engine ancestor. I also am still partial to the Ardun as the influence on the early Chryslers.
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Old 11-08-2005, 12:06 AM
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Okay, I guess that is motivation enough to unravel more of the Ardun origin saga. Yes indeed the inspiration was almost certainly from the OHV Talbot Lago and Zora owned a Talbot Lago T26 Grand Prix car just post WW II - this car has for many years belonged to a guy I used to go skiing with. I had not previously heard the P&W ancestry theory. Tony Lago, I believe bought Talbot in 1935 and by 1937 had produced the first OHV head on the fabulous T150 SS teardrop or "goutte d'eau" coupe. if you are lucky enough to peek under the hood of one you will see what looks like a straight six Ardun head.

Anyway back to the Flathead Ford stuff Just Post WW II in Great Britain - and here there are two stories, who knows which is true? It was either the British Coal trucks or the Croydon City Council trash trucks, both of which were flathead powered (see my earlier post re the British Ford V8 Pilot) that were proving woefully inadequate either to haul coal, or to haul trash up the hills of the South London area, depending on which theory you subscribe to. Having been approached by one or the other, thus Sidney Allard in turn approached Zora to 'hop up' the venerable Flathead Ford and the rest, as they say, is history.

As a brief sidebar which I alluded to in my earlier post, in the early 1960s - around 1963 to 1965, Leo Lyons in Riverside, CA re-engineered (plagiarism - what a great idea - wish I had though of it first!) the Ardun head design to fit on a Small Block Ch*vy. About twenty pairs of these Leo Lyons heads were cast and I have seen a couple of sets - in the metal. Some parts for these are currently being remanufactured in Arizona. Sorry for that bit of profanity....
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  #27  
Old 11-08-2005, 01:27 AM
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Regarding the man in Portland. Yes I knew he was in the category of Jay Leno. e-mailed him once. Thought I would pass it on anyway, because a person never knows, you might be Jay. Best of luck.
Mike
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  #28  
Old 11-08-2005, 06:52 AM
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NetFerret,
Thanks for the info.
If I'm not mistaken, Pasteur came up with the idea of the hemi on the simcas, but was another engineer that came from France that designed those engines. I'll ask him again what was the engineer's name.
Like I said before, I know just about nothing about these simca engines...
It's near impossible to find one of those here nowadays.
You would pay around U$5000.00 for the whole car and something around U$800.00 for an incomplete engine, that would probably need to be rebuilt.
I only know one of these engines that's for sale.
I'm currently in the process of restoring a 1928 model A pick-up, and I'll probably use a 1937 flathead. I wouldn't even consider using a simca engine. Again, this is just my opinion. I've heard enough bad things about these engines that totaly discouraged me of considering one of those...

Best regards,
Lucas (Lobo)
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  #29  
Old 11-08-2005, 07:10 AM
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That Duntov owned a Talbot-Lago, I don't know, but the link between him and Tony Lago was much stronger than ownership of a car. Both Duntov and his brother worked as engineers for Lago; this is where they acquired the additional knowledge that helped formulate the Arduns.

I would also guess that a 17:1 ratio, even if it were possible, would not have the best power potential in an Ardun head of either size. The combustion chamber would look like almost half of an orange's peeling, and I'd bet that the point of diminishing returns would be passed long before one got to that high of a ratio.

I doubt that one could even get that high, because with any kind of cam, the valve reliefs alone would probably mitigate against fitting the pistons so tightly.

Offys used ratios around 14:1, but at least they were of a 4 valve pent roof design, where one can get better breathing than a 2 valve design and still work with a relatively compact chamber. Also, with the smaller individual valves, there is less clearance problems. Still, the Offy's included angle was 72* in the standard design and this also was a power-sapper. Ardun has to have at least a 72* included angle, and those deep chambers are going to require deep valve reliefs to clear with any kind of valve lift to speak of. That 2 valve head is going to have a larger essentially flat surface, relatively, with the bigger valve, and fitting such a big pop up to it will be fun.

Last edited by wild.bunch; 11-08-2005 at 07:22 AM.
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Old 11-28-2007, 05:01 PM
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Emi-Sul wanted

I would like very much to acquire a Simca Emi-Sul engine. How might I purchase such an item for delivery to Pasadena, California USA? email [email protected]
David T "SimcaV8"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lobo 2
NetFerret,
Thanks for the info.
If I'm not mistaken, Pasteur came up with the idea of the hemi on the simcas, but was another engineer that came from France that designed those engines. I'll ask him again what was the engineer's name.
Like I said before, I know just about nothing about these simca engines...
It's near impossible to find one of those here nowadays.
You would pay around U$5000.00 for the whole car and something around U$800.00 for an incomplete engine, that would probably need to be rebuilt.
I only know one of these engines that's for sale.
I'm currently in the process of restoring a 1928 model A pick-up, and I'll probably use a 1937 flathead. I wouldn't even consider using a simca engine. Again, this is just my opinion. I've heard enough bad things about these engines that totaly discouraged me of considering one of those...

Best regards,
Lucas (Lobo)
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