Hello all, I think I am really close on trailering limit for my new Excursion. Seems like the 05 6.0 Diesel is a heavy vehicle that is not allowing me much wiggle room for tongue weight. Let me throw the facts out to you for discussion.

Tow Vehicle

GVWR ----- 9200 lbs.
GCWR ----- 20000 lbs.
GAWR front 5250 lbs.
GAWR rear 4700 lbs.

Scale curb weight front ----- 4180
Scale curb weight rear ------ 3700
Scale curb weight total ----- 7880

Now my scale weight included myself and 22 gallons of diesel fuel
Add to this my wife as a front seat passenger who is 165 lbs, my kids who add up to 120 lbs., 22 gallons of diesel at 150 lbs. and gear at 300 lbs.
My travel trailer says that the tongue weight is 910 lbs. I will be using a weight distributing hitch.

Soooo...... here is my math. Please tell me I am wrong.

Gross vehicle weight GVW

One passenger plus 22 gallons of fuel and truck ---------- 7880
Additional passengers ---------------------------------- 285
22 gallons of diesel fuel -------------------------------- 150
Gear -------------------------------------------------- 300
Hitch weight ------------------------------------------- 200
Trailer tongue weight ----------------------------------- 910

Gross Vehicle Weight will be ----------------------------- 9725 lbs.

I am over my GVWR by 525 lbs. Or am I? Does the weight distributing hitch remove some of the tongue weight from the equation. If so do I need to just put less gear in my truck?


Thank for the input on this.

 

This is tricky and may best be answered by weighing your rig with the WD hitch on. Check front axle, both axles and then figure our rear axle weights, then weigh your trailer axles. This will tell you if you are over the Axle weight ratings of any axle, and it will tell you what GVW you really have for the loaded truck.

The trick as you have determined is that from straight math you are over GVWR. What you need to figure out is how much is on the tongue, and I don't know for sure how to do this.

A WD hitch does exactly that. It redistributes the tongue weight to ALL the axles on the truck AND trailer. So your 910 pounds is not all on the tongue. It is torqued forward onto the Front axle and back onto the trailer tires and it lifts some weight off the truck rear axle. Do bumper height measurements before and after the WD, you will see that the front goes down, the rear goes up and the trailer goes down. The problem is I don't know the math to figure how much each way. A wild guess is that if proper adjustments are made, that the weight distributed to each axle is something like 1/4 on each. This means a ballpark guestimate of 228# is on your tongue and another 228# is on the front axle which still puts you slightly over rating at about 9271#.

Keep in mind the GVWR of the trailer often does not include accessories like AC, Microwave etc. It is based usually only on the standard trailer and standard accessories and water etc.

If it was me I would think I was close enough to do it relatively safely, but my opinion is no guarantee. To be sure I would have a serious talk with the trailer and or WD hitch mfg. Also I might decrease some of the load on the bed and or shift some load towards the rear of the trailer.

You are close enough that the usual "rule of thumb" calculations get iffy.

Good Luck,

Jim Henderson

 

You can't count the full 910# of tongue weight. With a weight distribution hitch it transfers weight to the front of the tow vehicle AND backwards to the trailer. The tongue weight is figured as strait down force, when you use a weight distribution hitch it transfers tongue weight.

The real question is how much is the UVW (unloaded vehicle weight) of the trailer you tow. This should be on the title or in the cupboard usually above the kitchen sink. With that weight, and you can figure for a family of four 800-1000# of stuff (food, clothes, dishes, etc...), you can get your total weight ( truck and trailer togther). See where that is compared to the 20,000# GCWR (gross combined weight rating). The GCWR is what Ford says that you are able to tow safely.

You can PM me if you have some other concerns that I can answer or get answers for. I am in the RV business. Although it is overhelming trying to figure it all out, sometimes we can get confused by all the numbers.

Toyman

 

Thanks for the replies on this.

Some information about my trailer.

GVWR ----------------10,830
UVW ----------------- 7,756
Carrying Capacity ---- 3,074

There are 503 lbs. of factory installed options. (Awning, microware, etc.)
Water capacity equals to 387 lbs.
Propane capacity equals to 60 lbs.
Gear I carry equals to about 500 lbs.
Assuming half full grey and black water tanks ---- 450 lbs.


My trailer weight would be "fully" loaded

UVW ------- 7,756
Options ----- 503
Water ------- 387
Propane ----- 60
Gear -------- 500
Holding Tanks - 450

Trailer Weight -- 9656

My GCVW would be 9725 + 9656 = 19,381 if I go fully loaded. I am under my Ford established GCWR of 20,000. But not by much huh?

The frustration is based on the Excursion GVWR of 9,200 lbs.

If I were to fill the truck with eight adult males all over 200 lbs. I would be over the limit as well. The math would be something like this

Truck, driver, 22 gals of diesel ---- 7880
22 gal diesel --------------------- 150
Seven Adult Passengers ---------- 1400

Gross Vehicle Weight -------------9430

I mean c'mon!! This is an eight passenger vehicle, right?

Anyhow, maybe this additional information will be helpful for you to give me some advise. My guess is there are many Excursion owner that do not know they are well under the GCWR but are well over the GVWR.

 

The UVW of the trailer will include all of the options that are on that trailer as it came off the assembly line. You should not have to add for it, if the number you have is from inside the cupboard. The only time you would have to add for options is when looking at the brochure, these are estimated weights. Normally your holding tanks would be empty, most campgrounds have dump stations so you can empty after the weekend. I normally don't fill my fresh water holding tank, most of the time I am at a campground that has water hook up. If You are traveling a long distance you can put a little in the fresh tank so you can use the bathroom or clean up a little after stopping to make a sandwich.

Bottom line is you have plenty of tow vehicle for what you are doing, so go out and enjoy your summer full of camping.

Toyman

 

You forget that the "standard" passenger weight is set at about 150 pounds from experimentation back around WWII. We Americans have been supersized since then. So your truck is probably within spec with 8 "Standard" passengers, but throw in a few water buffalo and some toys...

Oy, looking at your trailer weight detail puts you further into the hole. Based on your weight of... 9656, the rule of thumb is 10 to 15% of that is tongue weight. THis means instead of your tongue weight of 910, you have 965 to 1448. Your problem is getting worse, the more we know.

Technically your legal trailer weight and the weight the law will look at if you get in an accident is 10,830 which puts tongue weight at 1,083 to1,624. this is even worse.

So from the figures you gave, legally you are over rating with the trailer combination you have. You are a tiny bit over GCWR and a significant amount over GAWR and I haven't looked at the others under the assumption that they had better margin, could be wrong. Probably no one will ever notice or check, but if you ever got stopped or had an accident, the numbers would make your rig illegal. I am not a lawyer and my math might not be taking everything into account but from previous similar discussions on thsi site you are just enough over to make things a technical but problem.

Your rig can probably handle the load, it will just decrease component life a bit. Maintenance is critical with this load, even if you were just under rating. Good brakes are a must and antisway is a big plus, check your tranny temps and add a cooler if you are seeing much over 200 regularly.

You are pushing the envelope with this truck. This seems to be a more common problem than we like to think. A big truck should be able to handle a big load right? But not when the truck is loaded down with heavy running gear(the engine in your case) and accessories and is really designed as a Luxury touring rig rather than a serious tow rig. More than a few 250 and 350 owners also find themselves in the same boat. Each rig has many opitons available. Most rigs do not have the optional heavy axles, brakes and drive train needed to handle a big load.

Good Luck,

Jim Henderson

 

Thank you very much for the information. Now I am going to run these numbers one more time online. I hope you might respond once more for me. I appreciate your help. Since I have two diesel trucks (05 Excursion and 03 Silverado Extended Cab P/U) this determination does not mean I am out of luck if I can not tow with the Excursion. I have three kids ages 7,5,and 4. I want to do this safely. So here we go.

One passenger plus 22 gallons of fuel and truck ---------- 7880
Additional passengers (Actual weight plus 40 lbs.)--------- 245
11 gallons of diesel fuel (32 gal total /So no fill ups?!?!?!) - 100
Hitch weight (Actual weight)---------------------------- 156
Trailer tongue weight (Light load of 8,200 lbs. x 10%) 821

Gross Vehicle Weight will be ----------------------------- 9202 lbs.

Gross Trailer Weight will be lightly loaded ----------------- 8216 lbs.
Gross Combined Vehicle Weight --------------------------17418 lbs.


This analysis make me happy from a GCVW standpoint. While this will be difficult I think all the gear can be stored in the far rear of the trailer thus assisting me on the tongue weight issue.

The problem that persists is with my GAWR

GAWR front 5250 lbs.
GAWR rear 4700 lbs.

Scale curb weight front ----- 4180
Scale curb weight rear ------ 3700

This leaves me 1070 lbs extra load on my front axle and
This leaves me 1000 lbs extra load on my rear axle.

This differential is before the addition of my family, fuel, and tongue weight. This additional weight is a total of 1422 lbs. My kids and fuel will mainly be weighed on the rear axle and my wife on the front axle. Theoretically, my new available load will be

905 lbs. for the front axle and
659 lbs. for the rear axle.

Now I am full circle here with your help. What do you think the weight distribution hitch will do to the 821 lbs. of tongue weight. Is it safe to say that the rear axle will not be loaded beyond 659 lbs.? If so then I say I am home free and off the dealer to spend $800 on the new Dual Cam Reese Weight Distribution Hitch. Then I will go to the scales for final confirmation.

However, if I have made a mistake let me know. I know I am on a razor trying to get this straight, but I think I am OK

Thanks Toyman for the correction on the trailer weight and thanks Jim for the analysis. With your help I have made some safe determinations for my family.

 

Please remember I am not a towing expert, I have just gone thru the same analysis in the past and have read the same here. I have towed since 98, and dinky stuff before that since 1975.

The gotcha that you have here is basically paper specifications. If you had an accident or some officer with nothing to do all day saw, then you might get in trouble since you would be legally over weight in most if not all state.

BUT, The manufacturers base their ratings upon extensive testing adn a determination of just how much warrranty work they want to pay for. When it comes to overloading like you are looking at, the manufacturer is just looking at what is a reasonable compromise on service life and maintenance costs. If you were say pulling a total GCWR of about 30K then you bet you are unsafe with your setup. If you are less than 10% over weight then you are practically safe but technically not. It becomes a judgement call in this case.

In the extremely unlikely event that you did have an accident, the judge isn't going to buy that "Jimbo said it was probably OK", he will want to know my qualifications, which professionally I have none in this area. I hope someone on this list with professional experience steps in, but I think they will say the same stuff as I have but with better reasoning.

But looking at your numbers here is what I will comment...

First Playing with the load only changes the practical aspects of your problem, not the legal and or rating issues. The rating is paper and has not changed. Your GCWR is still from the paper rating... 9200(GVWR truck)+10,830(GVWR trailer)=20,030 which is close enough to the rated GCWR of 20,000 to not really matter. A lawyer shark would really have to scrable to cause problems with that.

Why do you have an extra 11g of fuel, nice to have but if it is in a can, it is adding 100# to your problem. Or is the 32g your actual capacity?

Is the hitch the reciever under your truck? If so it technically adds the weight to the rear axle.

Your figure for GVWR(actually measured/estimated not rated GVWR) of 9202 based upon your calculations is high since the total ESTIMATED tongue weight of 821 is not all on the truck, about half should be shifted back to the trailer. So with your fudge factors, your truck weight with load, fuel, trailer etc should be about 410# less or 8792. This is a valid calculation assuming your figures are OK, and so you are under GWVR. But keep in mind the paper rating says your tongue weight is around 10% at least of 10,830 and of course split forward and back.

Side comment only... Your Excursion weighs almost exactly as much as my 94 F250supercab 4x4 gaser, but my axle and brakes are what makes the difference in rating.

As far as your GAWRs assuming your load is as you said, your practically correct but technically wrong tongue weight of 821#s divided front and rear and trailer probably works out near what you estimated. I don't have enough info to check your math in detail and besides we are not worrying as much about practical towing versus paper. The problem is on paper your GAWR rear is over something like...3700+guestimate half of the 1422(this one is giving trouble about what it is) plus the Rated weight of the trailer which is about (1,083-821)/2= something like 4541, but like I said something is funny about the figures you used. It looks like you are OK on paper too.

I think you are close enough not to worry about the practical application. As far as paper you are probably a tiny bit over GCWR and somewhere in the range of the GAWR rear. We are counting angels on the head of a pin.

I would do it, but like I said, if you are over in any rating and had a problem , it is possible that they would jump on that and doesn't matter what I said since I am not a pro. I think the only time you really have a problem is when you are grossly over rating and with the figures you give it looks OK.

Someone step in here, I could have made an error in math or overlooked something. But I think it is OK for practical purposes.

Good Luck,

Jim Henderson

 

Jim,


What you are saying is interesting. If I get into an accident or I am checked on the road, the law will be looking at posted limits on the vehicles to develop their conclusions? If that is the case then I have problems. I guess I will need to make some phone calls regarding this.

Thank you for the info.

Chris

 

flitchplate,

When properly adjusted, your hitch should distribute equaly 1/3 to the trucks front axle, 1/3 to the trucks rear axle and 1/3 to the combined trailer axles.

Your earlier calculations seemed to be counting the fuel wieght twice and had too much wieght for the hitch but it looks like you corrected that in the last round of figures.

My rig is 20# short of the GCWR which isn't a good thing IMHO. You will have a less stressfull experience towing your trailer if you stay at about 80% of the rating and everything will last longer. I'm looking for a larger capacity vehicle that will meet my needs. Being able to stop the rig under all circumstances is probably the most important factor. Your trailer is just one bad wire away from having no brakes.

If you can find a set of CAT segmented truck scales near by your home, they are a great help in adjusting your hitch. I started out by placing a piece of masking tape on my front and rear fenders and measuring from the ground to the bottom edge of the tape and then writting the measuremnet on the tape. Then hitch the trailer up and adjust the chains untill I had no more than 1/2" rise in the front of the vehicle as per a second measurement of the tape. Then I went to the scales where I could put the tow vehicles front axle on one segment, the rear on another and the combined trailer axles on the third segment of the scales and got a reading from the operator. In my case, the initial adjustment was right on, but if you need further adjustment, they don't charge as much for a re-wiegh as for the first time. If you go at a time when they are not too busy, you can adjust the hitch right on the scale and wiegh it again.

Gene

 

Hello all. Follow up to my original problem with the 2005 Excursion, FYI.


I just took my truck across the state scales in my area. (I know a police officer who works the scales) I weighed in at 17,250 with my trailer, truck, half a tank of gas and an adult passenger. He pulled me off to the side and we had a brief discussion regarding my rig.

1) He said I am fine legally with all my weights.
2) He was not happy with the rear suspension. Suggested helper springs or the such.
3) The indication he gave me regarding my truck pulling a 32 foot trailer was concern about my ability to stop. He encouraged me to regularly check my brake system and not wait until it "needs" repair. His experiece tells him he is more worried about stopping ability than trailer over loading.

Overall I am satisfied with my visit. I know that my GVWR is DAMN CLOSE with this rig. A full tank of gas, four more passengers, and some gear and I am over the limit. I can say this trip was very calming for me. Nothing is better than peace of mind.

I am going to spend money on new shocks, a Hellwig sway bar, and Firestone air bags. Then I will be ready for the mountains.

 

"This analysis make me happy from a GCVW standpoint. While this will be difficult I think all the gear can be stored in the far rear of the trailer thus assisting me on the tongue weight issue."


Whatever you do, don't load the rear of the trailer so heavy that you unload the tongue and rear wheels of the tow vehicle. Be sure your load is balanced in the trailer so you initially get 10% - 15% on the hitch ball.


Really bad things happen when you have a tail heavy trailer!