What everyone has posted here about Gen. vs Alt. is quite true.
One of the vertues of the "Orphan Years Trucks", '57-'60, is that one had the Option of one or the other installed in ones truck if one so desired.
Now to track down the "Cooler" for the Alt. so I can mount it.

Cheers
Colonel Flashman
Red '58 Mercury M-100 223 I-6 w/ Merc-O-Matic;
Blue '58 Mercury M-100 Panel 223 I-6 w/ M-O-M

 

I think the first thing I am going to do is getting everything working with the 12 volt generator and Voltage regulator. The voltage spike comment does have me worried about the regulator. I am going to get rid of those points. Might have to put an electronic regulator in that black box in the firewall. Anybody know of a voltage regulator for a generator that is solid state?

 

What did the alternator look like in those years? Also what was used for the voltage regulato mechanical or solid state?

 

Non solid state would burn up from a spike just as fast as your radio will.. There is no real way to protact from a 600V DC spike when one hits.. And Yes it can be up to and over 600V.. In my case.. I put in a ignitor 2 electronic Ing System and a gen wouldnt handle it and could kill it before I even got the truck started.. In most cases the only reason to keep a gen is for Stocker points at a show.. I have worked one some real old cars, trucks and boats and if it had a genn it was gone on days for a alt becouse I cant install newer electronic items IE: electronic fuel pumps, newer stereos, Dig dash gages, Cell fone equipment and so forth.. Yes pluggin in a cell fone into a cig lighter in a truck with a gen can kill the cell fone real fast..

So Like I said.. It up to U in the end.. But just think of what U want to do and what the gen can handle in the long run.. if U keep the gen.. just remember U cant even install a cell fone...

Best of luck and enjoy the whole ride :d

 

Madathlon,

There are ways to actually make a gennie quieter (electronically) than a stock alternator at the output. I won't go into the details here, 'cuz I'll be accused of being "certain people" on the board (see note to Dewayne below). The methods aren't rocket science or anything, and they will allow you to use a generator with whatever you like as far as accessories go. I can't think of a reason why someone would want to do it on an effie, but it could be done without too much trouble.

I hope I didn't give the wrong impression previously - I think alternators are generally a better way to go for most folks who are not concerned with the restoration issue. Folks like Tim and me (and others?) are comfortable with the gennie, and I kind of like the stock route. I certainly would encourage someone to consider an alternator as long as they have the information to make a good choice. I think that's what we're all trying to provide in different ways.

You're right Dewayne, we really are in agreement. I just like to tease a lot 'cuz you can take it. After the "girly" 302 hassling, I figger you can take just about anything.

 

I emailed you, hopefully you can give me some information offline. I did some searching on Google and have bookmarked allot of places to read. For some reason I just like the looks of the generator next to the flat 6. Probably the same reason I didn't put a 350 Chevy in my truck I wanted something a little different.

 

Christopher and George,

I've heard that a generator can charge a flat battery and an alternator won't because it needs some voltage from the battery before it will work at all.

Like you, I think I will be staying with a generator just because I like to work with the old stuff.

George, as usual, you are a walking encyclopedia. Thanks.

Because I'm thinking of switching to a 12 volt system, and because that will make it easier to install an electronic ignition, I'd like to hear about how to make a generator system less 'noisy'.

Best regards to all,

Paul.

 

Some additional points to consider in favor of the alternator:
1) As discussed, the alternator's solid state regulation and broad band power curve produce far less charging output variations and thus better protect fragile electronic equipment. These same characteristics also greatly extend the life of the battery, by reducing the severity of charge/discharge cycles. Ever notice how the lights on an old vehicle with a generator will turn dim and yellowish, until the engine speed is raised somewhat above idle? That's because the ignition system, the lights, etc. have all been pulling power from the battery, and then once the engine speed is raised the battery undergoes a charging cycle. Not good. An alternator will also help ensure that the battery stays up, if the vehicle must idle for long periods of time, especially with the use of headlights, electric wipers, heater/defroster, etc. (and perhaps even aftermarket four-way hazard lights?).
2) An alternator's brushes are in contact with smooth "slip rings" on the rotating piece (the rotor) whereas a generator's brushes must rub against a segmented commutator and constantly make-and-break electrical connections. This contributes to far more wear than in an alternator.
3) The basic design of an alternator is somewhat self limiting in output. That is, if an alternator's voltage regulator were to fail, the alternator would begin to produce full power, and could do so for long periods of time without damage. The battery would not be happy, and "cook" itself after a time. An unregulated generator, on the other hand, will continue to produce more current the faster it's spun, and can easily exceed it's rated output and go into a self-destruct mode. Of course, the battery is still getting cooked here as well.
Thus, the alternator and it's solid state regulator will perform better, last longer, weigh less, promote longer life for the vehicle's battery and other electrical components, require less connecting wiring and take up less room (especially if the alternator has a built-in "integral" regulator). And in today's marketplace it's almost a given that an integral regulator alternator will cost less than a replacement generator/regulator combination. I love the old iron, but this is one case where it's a good thing that they don't make them like they used to.

 

I wish I could find the article but is was not to long ago that you can have the generator look but inside its an alternator. If I come across it I'll post it up.

 

I classify Alternators with disc brakes, and generators with drum brakes. Both will get you stopped, but each have their own good points and bad points. Its up to each of us which way we want to go, or how well we want to stop.

 

Agree Tim, and in fairness, my opinion is jaded. What the military has done is keep a charging system designed in '56 so we can interchange parts over 50 years worth of different trucks. Then install in an otherwise fairly state of the art Hummer, complete with two high powered digital radios and two artillery fire control computers in the back. Oh, we better swap the 60AMP for a 100AMP upgrade at $1100. Hey the battery still goes dead unless you run the truck constantly. Better start the 5KW DC generator up. Now add a 19 year old that doesn't know/care where the batteries are so he can add water. To the point, on about day 5 the batteries are dry, the wiring harness is on fire and I'm busy for two days. Over and over and over. Don't get me started on the trucks with the Air Conditioning / generator combo. None of that is the fault of the generator. We are way out of bounds for the designed purpose of the generator.

"I classify Alternators with disc brakes, and generators with drum brakes."

Thats a pretty good analogy 51 Ford.

George, I know you're just defending yourself. And you feel free to scan the contents of the entire internet onto this forum whenever you like. I may give you grief, but I learn a lot from your posts. Some of it's even useful

 

I must be luckey, I drive my truck just about every day a few hundred miles a week. My cd player playes just fine my msd electronic dissy is also fine. I run day and night I have no problems with the generator. Loose conections, bad grounds dirty battery conections cause voltage spikes. They might have some ac ripple but so does a lot of alternators diodes can and do leak. Ever have that check engine light that would not go away with strange or no codes? Alternator wine in the radio? I find these problems often. This can be checked by seting your dvom to ac and hook it to alt out put and to ground. They both have their good and bads. They really are both same thing. On both if everthing is rite their is no trouble.

 

Hey Fat... what was ur E-grade and MOS? I was in For 15 myself.. And I was a 974N AKA CWO3 Motor Pool Chief.. But back to what I was going to say.. Im my Old unit We took he old water fills and replaced them all with sealed Gels before Desert Shield on all the Equipment we had..

But On how to mount a alt and line up the belts.. If U look in my gallery U shall see a pic of my setup with a double Pulley guide on my alt.. ( $2.25 fram NAPA) and that how I lined up my Alt to the fan and crank pulleys Install time about a whole 10 mins.. Now I know not everyone has a full shop but with some time and just a little time U could get some Unvirsal Brackets and make a setup that will work for U. Most Parts stores have a array of brackets so u can mix and match.

 

OK, ya talked me into it.

Here are a couple of short versions of how to quiet down your generator/voltage regulator. These circuits and components will work for both 6V and 12V systems, positive and negative ground. Don't expect a single "plug-and-play" solution to work for every application - you have to try a few things to see what works best in your truck. The values for the capacitors below can be changed (caps are really cheap) to see if your truck requires a little different setup. As far as the inductors go, just make sure you have enough current capacity and you can change their values as well.

57_Ford is absolutely correct when he mentioned that loose wires and/or corroded connections will kill you if you are trying to reduce noise in your electrical system. Especially on the 6V systems, make sure you have good grounds. My frame had rust between riveted crossmembers, so you might even find that the one frame member is not really grounded well to the others.


Easy/cheap method: Bypass capacitors at the generator and voltage regulator outputs. The circuit below is a little better setup than the original one used by the dealers for radio installations, and the caps are all that's needed in many applications. Ceramic caps will provide better performance than the original electrolytic caps. In addition, unlike electrolytics, ceramics are non-polarized so you can install them either way in the circuit and not have them make a popping sound as they go away.

Better method: Bypass caps plus inductors at the generator and voltage regulator outputs. This is generally the best passive filter method available. This is my recommendation as a compromise between nothing and getting obsessive about it. I know some marine applications use generators, and I seem to recall there were noise supression units available that use this basic technology. I haven't looked, but there may be an off-the-shelf unit available.

Over-the-top method: Capacitive/inductive passive filter plus active semiconductor noise rejection chips. Requires more design and testing time than I can put in right now, and is probably not worth the effort.




Newark Electronics
Inductor part number: 28C9406 $9.56 each
1 uF capacitor part number: 08B7356 $0.65 each
0.001 uF capacitor part number: 87F4761 $0.17 each


OK, now comes the part where I lose credibility and you get the disclaimer. Although these are standard passive electronic circuits, and they are widely used for noise supression in a variety of applications, I haven't tested these on my truck so I can't guarantee their effectiveness.

I made that last part up and I ain't even a lawyer!

 

"This is my recommendation as a compromise between nothing and getting obsessive about it."

You're no fun.

And, coming from the guy who completely disassembled his truck's frame, that's a remarkable quote.

Seriously, I'm thinking this might be worth a tech article. I keep hearing about fried Pertronix Ignitors. I'll bet we can save some people from some more lost ignition pickups.