V10 Gas vs Diesel "The Truth"
#362
06-18-2015, 10:04 AM
More then a bit high
Thanks for all the replies, I was not aware the 6.7 fuel system was 18 grand ? I know a lot of companies are going back to gas because how expensive the new diesels are long term.
I like the original thread starters avatar, I liked the Road Warrior wrestlers. Hawk has since passed away.
I like the original thread starters avatar, I liked the Road Warrior wrestlers. Hawk has since passed away.
There was also post from the ford engineer on the 6.7 that said if it was him he would only replace the pump and then monitor the injectors.
At that price I would buy a used engine and do the transfer. Dealer prices are always higher then the street price. I have my fuel system covered by GEICO break down and then comp and then my umbrella policy. Its easier and better to get insurance on the issues. I don't like the ford warrenty as they seem to have a way of denie
I have a v10 it a great motor but it will stop for every gas station around. While towing 37 gallons on gets me 200 miles. That's a lot of stops.
It comes down to choose your poison.
#363
06-18-2015, 11:52 AM
Hotshot
From reading on this site I have seen 11 to 9k for ford to do the repair.
There was also post from the ford engineer on the 6.7 that said if it was him he would only replace the pump and then monitor the injectors.
At that price I would buy a used engine and do the transfer. Dealer prices are always higher then the street price. I have my fuel system covered by GEICO break down and then comp and then my umbrella policy. Its easier and better to get insurance on the issues. I don't like the ford warrenty as they seem to have a way of denie
I have a v10 it a great motor but it will stop for every gas station around. While towing 37 gallons on gets me 200 miles. That's a lot of stops.
It comes down to choose your poison.
There was also post from the ford engineer on the 6.7 that said if it was him he would only replace the pump and then monitor the injectors.
At that price I would buy a used engine and do the transfer. Dealer prices are always higher then the street price. I have my fuel system covered by GEICO break down and then comp and then my umbrella policy. Its easier and better to get insurance on the issues. I don't like the ford warrenty as they seem to have a way of denie
I have a v10 it a great motor but it will stop for every gas station around. While towing 37 gallons on gets me 200 miles. That's a lot of stops.
It comes down to choose your poison.
#364
06-18-2015, 01:26 PM
With stop and go towing with loads from 5000-12,000 I'm still near 7.
#365
06-18-2015, 01:58 PM
Yeah
Replacing the motor isn't a viable option. You would still have to replace the injectors, (don't think they come with the motor) fuel pump, fuel lines, and clean the tank. So, replacing the motor replaces nothing that would solve the problem. As for street prices, these motors are so new that aftermarket options are quite limited. So, there likely isn't much variation from dealer and "on-the-street" prices.
When you buy a used working engine they come with injectors. Also comes with the HPFP. The dealer is where you take your truck during warranty. If not warranty you should not be there. I would check ebay but I am at work, for some reason the company has that site blocked.
As I said before pick your poison. Stopping every 200 miles while towing sucks. Staying above 4000 RPM towing uphill sucks.
I have both and both do the job. I enjoy towing with the diesel better.
#366
06-18-2015, 02:05 PM
Depend what I am towing and where. LA area sucks the gas down also.
Wind resistance is a bigger factor then weight for me.
Last edited by donovan; 06-18-2015 at 03:31 PM. Reason: more info
#367
06-18-2015, 02:29 PM
#368
06-20-2015, 08:29 AM
It is slow, you have to remember the speed limit used to be 55 and the Mack goes 62, regardless it can move 70 grand with no problem but is slow.
Something tells me the people who are using the math equation are missing something. Nobody as of yet has laid it out so until then they are right but just think what the Mack does with a 5 speed.
I have a 450 to 500 HP 302 Mustang and no way it could do that with a 5 speed I do not believe.
Something tells me the people who are using the math equation are missing something. Nobody as of yet has laid it out so until then they are right but just think what the Mack does with a 5 speed.
I have a 450 to 500 HP 302 Mustang and no way it could do that with a 5 speed I do not believe.
whats the mechanical top speed of the mack truck??? 65-70. its the same thing with the deuce.5's that people use for tow rigs, that have 5 speeds, that will tow anything with an engine that has less than 200 hp, and has a mechanical top speed of 60 mph.
your mustang, or other 5 speed car, has a mechanical top speed of what....150-160 at stock redline? doesn't mean the poor lil 302 will reach the mechanical top speed, because it wont in stock 200 hp trim.
its in the gearing...the dump truck with 5 speeds and a mechanical top speed of 65-70mph is geared to tow only. put any engine with the same hp, and rpm bands that aren't stupid high, and it will do the same job.
if the mack truck was geared like your mustang, with a mechanical top speed of ~150, it wouldn't move itself let alone a load with a measly 250 hp.
math is math, hp is hp.
#369
06-20-2015, 08:47 AM
Thanks alot, I would think long term the gas motor would expire much quicker and need a rebuild.
I am still curious as of no one has explained how the 237 HP Mack does what it does with a 5 speed. I know it is slow but I was reading these threads where these guy's were pulling 40 plus tons and getting away with it. I could not see any of those engines in that video remotely doing that ?
I am still curious as of no one has explained how the 237 HP Mack does what it does with a 5 speed. I know it is slow but I was reading these threads where these guy's were pulling 40 plus tons and getting away with it. I could not see any of those engines in that video remotely doing that ?
gearing, as I said above.
if you start out riding a 5 speed bike in its top gear (5) and the fastest you could pedal it would go 25mph, you are going to have a hellofa time starting off and if you managed to get it to speed, you will be pushing the bike up the next hill. if you had another bike that had a geared top speed to be much slower, like 12-13 mph, you could start off no problem in top gear and hold speed up small hills with no downshift. shifting into 4th would allow you to basically climb any road hill without slowing down much.
it has something to do with it, but torque itself is not a measurement of the engines absolute cabability. the 1100 lb/ft of torque does nothing to move the load by itself. the high torque value indicates that the engine makes its 230 hp at a comfortable rpm, and also indicates that it has a high average hp through its rpm band.
if it were 230hp with 230 lb/ft of torque you'd know that the engine needs more rpm to do the same job....which would require much shorter gearing (higher ratio) to put the engine in its rpm band. top speeds would be identical after gear change because one engine is spinning 3000 rpm as a redline, the other is spinning 6000. if the vehicle with 3000 rpm redline has rear gear ratio of 5:1, the 6000 rpm engine would need 10:1 in order to do the same thing.
torque does not allow you to "spin up rpm".
torque does indicate the ability to have power on demand at any given rpm in its operating range.
a 230 hp with 1100 lb/ft of torque will make most of its 230 hp available off idle to redline, with 230 hp peak being somewhere around 2000-2300 rpm. a 230 hp engine with 230 lb/ft of torque is making very little from idle to 3000 rpm, with peak hp being somewhere between 4500-5000. basically, the engine with far less torque is gutless off idle and low rpm whereas the high torque engine can establish its potential hp output virtually off idle.
torque indicates how power is made. like I said, give me hp/tq peaks of any engine and I can tell you with accuracy what the particular engine is just by the hp/tq peaks.
#370
07-04-2015, 03:31 PM
gearing, as I said above.
if you start out riding a 5 speed bike in its top gear (5) and the fastest you could pedal it would go 25mph, you are going to have a hellofa time starting off and if you managed to get it to speed, you will be pushing the bike up the next hill. if you had another bike that had a geared top speed to be much slower, like 12-13 mph, you could start off no problem in top gear and hold speed up small hills with no downshift. shifting into 4th would allow you to basically climb any road hill without slowing down much.
it has something to do with it, but torque itself is not a measurement of the engines absolute cabability. the 1100 lb/ft of torque does nothing to move the load by itself. the high torque value indicates that the engine makes its 230 hp at a comfortable rpm, and also indicates that it has a high average hp through its rpm band.
if it were 230hp with 230 lb/ft of torque you'd know that the engine needs more rpm to do the same job....which would require much shorter gearing (higher ratio) to put the engine in its rpm band. top speeds would be identical after gear change because one engine is spinning 3000 rpm as a redline, the other is spinning 6000. if the vehicle with 3000 rpm redline has rear gear ratio of 5:1, the 6000 rpm engine would need 10:1 in order to do the same thing.
torque does not allow you to "spin up rpm".
torque does indicate the ability to have power on demand at any given rpm in its operating range.
a 230 hp with 1100 lb/ft of torque will make most of its 230 hp available off idle to redline, with 230 hp peak being somewhere around 2000-2300 rpm. a 230 hp engine with 230 lb/ft of torque is making very little from idle to 3000 rpm, with peak hp being somewhere between 4500-5000. basically, the engine with far less torque is gutless off idle and low rpm whereas the high torque engine can establish its potential hp output virtually off idle.
torque indicates how power is made. like I said, give me hp/tq peaks of any engine and I can tell you with accuracy what the particular engine is just by the hp/tq peaks.
if you start out riding a 5 speed bike in its top gear (5) and the fastest you could pedal it would go 25mph, you are going to have a hellofa time starting off and if you managed to get it to speed, you will be pushing the bike up the next hill. if you had another bike that had a geared top speed to be much slower, like 12-13 mph, you could start off no problem in top gear and hold speed up small hills with no downshift. shifting into 4th would allow you to basically climb any road hill without slowing down much.
it has something to do with it, but torque itself is not a measurement of the engines absolute cabability. the 1100 lb/ft of torque does nothing to move the load by itself. the high torque value indicates that the engine makes its 230 hp at a comfortable rpm, and also indicates that it has a high average hp through its rpm band.
if it were 230hp with 230 lb/ft of torque you'd know that the engine needs more rpm to do the same job....which would require much shorter gearing (higher ratio) to put the engine in its rpm band. top speeds would be identical after gear change because one engine is spinning 3000 rpm as a redline, the other is spinning 6000. if the vehicle with 3000 rpm redline has rear gear ratio of 5:1, the 6000 rpm engine would need 10:1 in order to do the same thing.
torque does not allow you to "spin up rpm".
torque does indicate the ability to have power on demand at any given rpm in its operating range.
a 230 hp with 1100 lb/ft of torque will make most of its 230 hp available off idle to redline, with 230 hp peak being somewhere around 2000-2300 rpm. a 230 hp engine with 230 lb/ft of torque is making very little from idle to 3000 rpm, with peak hp being somewhere between 4500-5000. basically, the engine with far less torque is gutless off idle and low rpm whereas the high torque engine can establish its potential hp output virtually off idle.
torque indicates how power is made. like I said, give me hp/tq peaks of any engine and I can tell you with accuracy what the particular engine is just by the hp/tq peaks.
Thanks for the help, here is where I got confused on this. I actually understood it fairly well until people on this site said the diesel pulled way better compared to their gasser so then I talked to motor builders about this and some top notch ones too at that and they said HP is not HP for pulling.
They told me the MPH would be the same but the engine that makes the HP earlier has the ability to build and maintain HP under a load better so I got confused. I understand the math and gearing completely now and I do not see how it can lie either.
The Mack with the 237 HP Maxidyne has a tranny option I believe with just a 5 speed only and no 2 up and I was reading it will pull from 35 MPH to 62 MPH in 5th moving 70 grand and does OK.
The engine builders told me just try to get a regular car engine to pull anything like that and it ain't gonna happen. They said you would need a doosie of a transmission with like a air shifter to where the RPM's never fell off and it would be shifting constantly to keep the RPM HP #'s up.
This was something I have seen over and over on the interstate, I will be going like 70 MPH and a rig will be behind me loaded and decide I am going to slow and without downshifting he just accelerates to like 80 in like 10 seconds and goes right around me and blows by and I cannot see a 400 HP car motor doing that at all under that kind of load ?
That takes some serious power to do that ? I know what you are saying but I will investigate probably the rest of my life.
Happy 4th and thanks.
#371
07-05-2015, 08:56 AM
I think this was true in the past when the diesel bottom ends were indestructible cast iron pigs making half the HP of the 6.7, but now with the insane HP/TQ numbers taking a toll on the bottom, plus all the crazy hardware up top for the common rail, diesels will probably need a repair that's expensive enough to call it a rebuild sooner than gas engines.
A $14-18k fuel system on a 6.7L might as well be a rebuild for how much it costs, you can buy 7.3 and 6.0 long blocks and maybe even full-dress 5.4s and 6.8s for that kind of money. And no injector IQA issues with any of them.
A $14-18k fuel system on a 6.7L might as well be a rebuild for how much it costs, you can buy 7.3 and 6.0 long blocks and maybe even full-dress 5.4s and 6.8s for that kind of money. And no injector IQA issues with any of them.
#372
07-05-2015, 08:21 PM
Unless you want an auciton six-pack of clapped out 5.4 XL RC/LB fleet trucks with 300k+ each, you might actually could get 6 of those for $18k.
#373
07-05-2015, 08:43 PM
I'm pretty sure I could go on auto trader right now and find several V10 F350s for under $8k with under 125k on the clock. I actually sold a 99 V10 F350 two years ago for $9k and it was immaculate. That was book value.
#374
07-11-2015, 08:54 AM
Here if FL deals are drying up.
#375
07-11-2015, 11:50 AM
I had a hard time finding a 7.3l 4x4 period, and when I did the had a 1/4 million miles and we're listed for $16-20k. Simply not worth it to me.
I concede I will get terrible milage while towing. I can buy a ton of fuel with the money I saved. That V10 gasser have plenty of grunt to pull the boat and the car trailer, "Poor man's diesel" is an excellent nickname.