nope, wires are in the right order, just double checked them. just tried it after i drove it about a half an hour. if i take the coil wire off of the distributor, it spins fine, with the wire on the distributor, it spins slowly and sporadically. i guess i will have to try retiming it again this weekend. i am getting mad that i cant drive my work truck to work, it is getting real old. btw i have stock exhaust manifolds if that does anybody any good.

 

Hi, kermit--

Here is what you said:

If an engine is hot and has too much initial ignition advance, cranking slow is a very common symptom; the mere fact that you removed the coil wire and it started cranking normally further proves that you have too much initial ignition timing.

When you have the coil wire connected, the spark plugs can fire--but what is happening is that they are igniting the fuel too soon on the compression stroke, and the forces generated are "pushing back" against the piston, which is in turn working against the starter. When you REMOVE the coil wire, they no longer are firing, which means they can't ignite the fuel and cause it to work against the engine when you try to start it.

You also said this:

Well, let's take a look at your situation for a minute:

1.) We have already figured out that you have too much initial ignition advance (the example you provided above proves that)
2.) You stated that when you crank the timing "back", it aggravates the "ping" condition, which would indicate you are actually advancing the timing instead of retarding the timing ("backing" it off), and that means that the engine can't take any more ignition advance.
3.) You stated that when you "advance" the timing (and we know now that you were actually "retarding" the timing), the engine runs like a dog.

Now, if an engine has too much initial advance to the point where it exhibits the starting conditions you describe, but runs fine when driven in normal RPM ranges, and advancing the distributor causes ping, while retarding the distributor causes poor drivability, then that usually means that something is wrong with the ignition advance CURVE.

Therefore, as I mentioned in a previous post, you have one of these conditions:

1.) The timing chain and gears are possibly one tooth "off" (could be either advanced or retarded), and while it might LOOK like the marks are lined up, they may be just slightly off--enough that a simple glance wouldn't be able to discern the error.
2.) Your distributor may have some worn or frozen parts--I have seen seized up mechanical advance weights, and when they can't move, they won't provide the advance the engine needs at RPM levels higher than idle. Your vaccuum advance also plays a large part in drivability; if it is not working, or is not connected to the correct vaccuum source, it can have a very adverse affect on drivability.
3.) Your dampener outer ring has slipped, and the timing marks are no longer in the correct places.
4.) A combination of two or more of the above conditions.

Since you said that your dampener was "sligthly off", that means that the outer ring has indeed slipped, and that dampener MUST be replaced. That will get the ignition timing marks in the correct places, but you still have the issue of drivability when you set the timing at what the factory specifies as the correct advance (or even a few more degrees--perhaps 2 or 4 additional degrees).

The only way that will be cured is if the ignition advance is correct. The only way the ignition advance will ever be correct is if all the components that operate within the distributor to affect the ignition timing are working properly, and are set correctly. The only way to know for sure that everything is working correctly within the distributor is to either purchase a new or rebuilt one, or have someone rebuild yours and re-curve it for your application.

With these things in mind, I still recommend that you do the following:

1.) Pull the timing cover and MAKE SURE the timing marks are lined up correctly
2.) Pull your distributor out and take it to someone who can check and adjust the curve for you, or purchase a new/rebuilt one
3.) Install a NEW dampener, so that when you time it, you can set the advance correctly--you might even want to get one of those timing tapes for the dampener that have 360-degrees of marks on them, and install it on the new dampener.

I am completely sure that one or more of these items is what is causing your issue (based on the information you have given), and if you perform the steps I've outlined, they will correct the issue.

 

see next post

 

Gang,
I just went through the same problem with my 89 F250 7.5 EFI. Hate to tell you this, but the problem turned out to be two cracked heads and a blown hole between 7 and 8. My problem came on right out of the blue. I had just gotten back from a 3,000 mile trip Sunday with no problems. I did notice that I was using about a gallon of coolant between checks and just figured it was venting off to the coolant tank. On Moday, I drove on a 200 mile trip and about half way in between when I started hearing that 'bunch of marbles sound" on the left side of engine. I stopped, checked timing (which was fine), (it was raining out pretty heavy and I had just fueled up the auxillarty tank with some cheap gas so I figurured I either got wet plug wires which were brand new 8mm or I had some crap gas.) I stopped at the next station and put hi=test in the back tank along with some injector cleaner just in case it was a plugged injector. The pinging got much better but didn't go away.
About 20 miles down the road with all guages reading normal (oil pressure, tempature), I couldn't see in back op me due to all the oil smoke that just strarted pouring out of the truck.
After, being towed home, I stripped the upper portion of the engine and discovered a hole burned right between 7 and 8 cylinders and the same area in the head melted about an inch up. other head (the one for 1-4 clylinders) was cracked in about 4 places which was only discovered after having it magnafluxed. I wish you better luck. I am now looking for a good set of 1989 heads for EFI.

 

well, here is the latest. i got my timing light back and hooked her up and timed her to 10* @ 750-800rpm( dont have the greatest tach) anyway this is with the vac. advance disconnected and plugged. i reved the motor and it advanced to about 25* when the mech advance kicked in, nice and smooth, timing doesnt seem to be jumping around. i hooked up the vacuum again and instantly timing went clear past 30* btdc at idle. is this normal? it is hooked up to what edelbrock says is the timed port, but it has constant vacuum. as far as i know it is supposed to be hooked up to the timed port, not manifold vacuum, is this correct. i know there has been some contention to this point and am not sure anymore. btw, does anybody know what the stock timing and idle for an automatic is on this truck ( for those of you who dont know, it is in my sig). i am not seeing any water in the oil, coolant loss or smoke out of the exhaust so i think my heads are ok. any reason why idle timing is up past 30* at idle? i feel like i am getting closer to the cause, but am not there yet. btw, i have an edelbrock 1407 just in case somebody wants to know.

also, i noticed something weird just now. if i crank it hot and it goes real slow, sometimes i can hit the key about 2 secs after i let off of it and it will fire right up like nothing in the world is wrong.


arghhhh!!!!

thanks everybody for the help in this situation, you all are great.

jamie

 

Put a starter of the '69 429 it has the solenoid on the stater and you also use the solenoid next to the battery. I put cables from a 4020 John Deere Tractor to in have no loss in pwer. Itworked well on my '83 F250 4x4 with 460.

 

Kermit, Stonecoldtx is right on the money! Retarding the timing will allieviate the detonation you are hearing, as well as allow the engine to turn over faster. 10 degrees of initial advance is way too much, and would definetly cause the "pre-ignition" problems you describe. What's happening is the air/fuel mixture is firing before the piston reaches Top Dead Center, and is trying to push it back down on the compression stroke! This would obviously cause the engine to "fight" the starter! Also, as long as the distributor's vacuum advance diaphram is retracting the breaker plate, all should be well. Just pull off the distributor cap and suck on the hose that leads to the diaphram. You should see the breaker plate move quite a bit. Now, hold your tounge on the hose for about half a minute to make sure the diaphram isn't leaking. If it is leaking, the plate will start to pull back to it's previous. "un-advanced" position. Now, pull your tounge off the hose and the breaker plate should snap back to it's original position. Make sure you have the advance connected to the PORTED vacuum on the carb, not the manifold vacuum port. The ported vacuum should have little to no vacuum present at idle, but increase as the throttle is opened. The manifold vacuum should display the opposite charictoristics, with full vacuum at closed throttle.

 

Kermit, ported vacuum, or "timed", is ONLY available off of the carb! The ported vacuum HAS to be taken from ABOVE the throttle valves, not below. ANY vacuum ports on the manifold are going to be manifold (full) vacuum at idle. Most carbs only have one ported (timed) vacuum port.

 

kermit, i have the same problem. cranks crappy then try it again quickly and it is fires right up (sometimes)

 

i know the difference between timed and full vacuum, what i am saying is that the port on the carb that edelbrock calls timed is giving full vacuum at idle, in fact every port is sucking air if i take the plug off of it, so at the very least i know the carb is screwed up. i will check for the dist vacuum leak later on today or tomorrow, thanks for the advice, thas is a pretty cool way to check it bigred350. if 10* is too much initial, what should it be, i have no references for this or the idle speed to set the timing at, i have no emissions sticker under the hood and the haynes manual i have says to refer to the sticker under the hood. thank you all for all the help, you all have been great.



jamie

 

The initial timing all depends on other factors. Compression, Cam, Distributor advance degrees and rate, fuel, etc..... There were some 429/460 engines in the early 70's that did spec 10 degrees initial timing, BUT for the most part these engines were in the higher horsepower strata. Generally speaking, the lower horsepower engines (i.e. trucks) specified a lower initial timing because they had more advance built in to the distributor. The high horsepower engines GENERALLY had less advance in the distributor, with some having no vacuum advance at all. Therefore, they could tolerate greater initial timing lead.

Without knowing the exact engine you have, I would say that a safe or "average" spec would be 28 degrees dwell and 6 degrees initial advance. Both of these figures should be taken at idle, around 800 rpm, and the vacuum line to the distributor taken off and plugged. In any event TOTAL crankshaft advance shpould not exeed 38 degrees, and that should all be "in" by 2800 rpm. This can easily be checked with a timing light and a degree tape that sticks on the harmonic balancer. If your within these areas, things should be alright. Remember, the more initial advance you give the engine, generally speaking, the more responsive it will be "off the line". The early Ford Autolite distributors were very easy to change timing rate and amount, just a set of springs for the rate of advance, and a rubber or brass bushing for the amount.

Good luck!

 

thanks for the specs bigred350, i will check her out tomorrow when i get home from work.

 

if your truck jump starts fine, then run a dual BATT. setup, it's real easy....two Batts...and another starter slonoid, run a switch to the soilnoied, and rigg it to come on with a switch in the cab, when you go out to start your truck, flip the switch...make sure you run the switch on some times..to keep the second batt charged,

i agree with the starter wrap, jegs has one for like 22 $ that's really nice, i know on my 460 i had problems starting it..i replaced the starter, and retarded the timing by about 6 deg, and never had any problem, what carb are you running? because the biggest problem i had was whne my carb was "tuned " correctly.. it sucked, so i richened it up, and the truck tap starts now..well ..it did until i pulled the motor

 

Hi, kermit--

I agree with BigRed350--you really need to have the correct timing curve in the distributor, but I've been saying that all along.

Read this and remember: If the dampener has slipped, REPLACE it, or you will NEVER have the correct timing curve.

Why? Because you have NO IDEA of where the correct timing marks should be or how much it has slipped--not to mention that it could slip further in the future.

If you're going to fix it, fix it the right way, and get that new dampener--they aren't all that expensive (the stock replacement ones), at less than $100, and it's cheap insurance to make sure that the timing is right.

One other thing you might consider is converting your distributor to mechanical advance only and eliminate the vaccuum advance. It is pretty easy to do, and any shop that has a curve machine can do it for you relatively quickly.

tweaker--

Now, since we've identified that the problem has to do with his ignition advance curve, why would anyone do that? That would be just applying a bandaid to the problem instead of curing it--and would cost almost as much as fixing the problem to begin with.

It's always better to fix the problem (if it can be fixed--and this one can easily be fixed), than to just apply a "workaround", especially since the cost of fixing it would be relatively low.

 

I had the same problem with 1983 f250 with the 460 engine and what I found was a couple of things on mine first battery cables +/- were rotted, second alternator was not charging battery fully and voltage regulator wasn't regulating voltage, third I bad set of brand new spark wires I took back to the store redeemed warranty.
After all my finds my truck hasn't had a problem with that.
I did have to change my starter once before all of these others but noticed how hot it was and I new had problem plus it started all over again with hard starts when hot.
Hope this helps you.