1969 toploader 4 speed, rebuilt a few years ago. Maybe this is the first time I tried to drive it in a "cold" weather of high-40's Fahrenheit, but the shifting was really stiff. So much so that I could not pull it out of reverse after backing out of my driveway. I ended up turning off the engine, then was able to shift it out of reverse and into 1st, restart the engine, and go. Then as I came to the first stop, I could not shift it into 1st again while sitting still, until I again shut off the engine. From there on, I made sure to try to shift into first while I was still coming to a stop. It got better as everything warmed up.

I'm using Valvoline's manual transmission lube, which I switched to when the initial load of synthetic GL5 after the rebuild kept crunching the 1-2 shift. The only thing I can think of is the blocking ring sticking to the mating cone, and not allowing the sleeve to slide over the matcing teeth.

How do you folks with a toploader in the colder climates deal with this?

 

When the clutch is engaged, the input shaft of the transmission should stop. If it does not, it will be hard to shift. I suspect in the real world, maybe the input shaft does not stop completely and the effort of the shifting would stop the shaft completely. If the drag on the clutch is too much, it's like putting it in gear without the clutch engaged.

As a cheap experiment, you can try a thinner oil. I do know that some manual transmission use ATF. Not suggesting a long term use with ATF, but if you swap out the oil and it shifts better with ATF, then at least you know which direction to go. If it still shifts hard, then you got a clutch dragging problem.

 

Thanks Butcher.

I have a BW T5 and a Mazda M5R1, both of which use ATF. The toploader is supposed to use MTL, but I've often wondered if it could use ATF instead. The Valvoline MTL does shift better, when warmed up. It does seep out of transmission, much more so than the synthetic GL5 I was using before, so ATF would probably seep even more.

I'm using a Centerforce Dual friction clutch with the toploader, and made my own pushrods for the clutch using 3/8" bolts and heim joints:

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1Q...RoS0ZWQnhENTJn

I'm pretty sure it's not dragging.

 

I would not recommend to use ATF unless it's factory approved. I would try it to determine if the shifting is better. Kind of like making a fork in the road. ATF is pretty cheap and worth the time/money to determine which direction to go.

Knowing the clutch is not dragging and thinking it's not dragging a a huge canyon. Like new parts, just because it's new does not mean it's good.

 

I've driven a car whose clutch cable was fraying and barely able to disengage the clutch, so I have an idea what a dragging clutch feels like. I'm not sure why steel linkage rods would be more likely to not disengage the clutch when it's cold vs warm. It's not like a fluid that will contract or expand with temperature, as might with hydraulic clutches. But I'll admit that I don't know the best way to test it.

I'll describe another experience with the same transmission. Again, it was when temperature was cooler, and the car was cold, but a different clutch. It was impossible to shift into first while moving, unless I slammed on the brakes. I figured this might have had something to do with the blocker ring not sliding to line up its teeth with those splined to the output shaft. That went away after I replaced the 75/90 synthetic gear lube with the Valvoline MTL. Operations seem "normal" with the Valvoline, except for the leaks.

 

If the transmission shifts with the engine off and shifts hard when it's running, I would automatically believe the input shaft is turning. That is how I think and would not stop barking up that tree until I knew what the facts are. Diagnosis based on feelings is like building a house on quick sand.

Can you actually see the input shaft/clutch disc? I'm not familiar with your set up.

One other thing is how is the pilot shaft bushing/bearing. If that is dragging, that too will cause the input shaft to turn even with the clutch disengaged.

 

That's a good reminder; not being able to shift into a gear is due to the input shaft turning. But one of my problems was that I could not get it out of reverse when the stickiness was happening. I will also note that even in normal temperature, getting out of reverse seems harder than getting out of any of the forward gears.

The pilot bearing was new, and I do recall seeing a little bit of grease packed in with the needles. Could the lubricant on the pilot bearing get so stiff when cold that it would keep the input shaft spinning while the clutch is disengaged?

Before I rebuilt the transmission, I noticed that the previous owner had installed the wrong sized pilot bushing, so the input shaft was not actually touching it; it was un-piloted. Even then, I had trouble getting into first gear when cold while moving. I could get into other gears though Again, the trick was to slam on the brakes while rolling to upset the drivetrain. The problem goes away when things warm up. It seems to me the blocker ring is not slipping on the cone to allow the synchronizer sleeve to slide over them.

The bell housing is pretty closed up, so I can not see the clutch or pressure plate. I'll have to try again on a cold morning and see if I can push the clutch any further if that would help.

 

There are plenty more knowledgeable people than me, but it appears that the transmission has to come out, no matter how you look at it. Whatever you find, let us know. It may help someone else in the future.

On a side note, I 'fixed' my VW manual 020 5 speed transmission. Ever since then, I had a problem with 2nd gear grinding when shifting fast. It's a common problem with that transmission and different types of oils would make the problem better or worst. I tried several different fluids and people are right, different fluids made things shift differently but it still ground when I shifted to 2nd hard. I took it apart at least twice and replaced the syncros more than once looking for the problem, I just gave up and just assumed that is the way it was.

About 15 years later, I elected to do some modifications to this transmission and I took it apart again. Low an behold, I found out the idiot who 'fixed' the transmission did not put the syncro spring in right. Not certain how many times I looked at that and never saw the problem I caused. Sometimes, walking away from the problem [and coming back a decade later] sheds new light on the problem.

Yes, the transmission has never shifted better.

 

Returning to this problem after a couple years.

The only adjustment I could make to deal with the sticky shifter when cold was to adjust the rods on the clutch linkage to lengthen them more. On the transmission side, the rod extension is limited by where the bottom of the Z-bar hits one of the header pipes when the clutch is fully engaged. That allows the most travel when pushing on the release fork. On the pedal side, the stock configuration uses that "helper" spring, and Ford's spec says to give the pedal about 1" of slack, which sets the helper spring to return the pedal back to the top position. I've adjusted that rod to take up all the slack, so it now pushes further to push the release fork further.

This seems to have helped with the original problem I had with the hard shifting when cold. However, now I'm seeing a different problem. When the engine is warm, I can't seem to get into reverse without grinding. I bring the car to a complete stop and row through all the forward gears, and pushing into reverse always gets a grind.

Since I'm maxed out on the clutch adjustment, I'm not sure what else I can do.

Ideas?

 

You may need to dent that primary tube to get more movement , and reverse is not synchronization, so a bit if a clunk should be expected , unless you are completely stopped .
I adjust the pedal free play for 0 at the pedal before pressing the clutch.
then adjust the Zbar adjustment for maybe an inch before clutch disengagement begins , which is pretty high in the throw , but disengagement is about half way from the floor .

 

it's also possible that when the trans was installed the disc was bent, by allowing the weight to stay on the disc not fully into the Pilot bearing

 

Thanks for all the responses.

In all cases, I was completely stopped. The problem started in the last couple months, only when the car is warmed up, like after driving around for 20-30 minutes, so something changed. Some of my attempts at alleviating the problem was to stop, sit stopped for a while, row through the forward gears, all the while keeping the clutch released, then try shifting into reverse. Still grinds.

I'm pretty sure the clutch disc was not bent. I installed that about 9 years ago, and the problem started recently.

I rebuilt the transmission about 10 years ago with one of David Kee's rebuild kits.

I know that the reverse gears are not synchronized; the straight cut gears sometimes require rowing through a couple of the forward gears to get the teeth aligned so they will slide into each other.

I thought about denting the header tube to make more clearance, that's such a tight space that it will require removing the header, unwrapping the thermal wrap. Not looking forward to that.

 

Manual transmissions will shift good when both shafts are not turning. Easy to know if the output shaft is not turning, but darn near impossible to know if input shaft is not. With synchronizers, the input shaft is stopped when the synchronizer is starting to engage. Not many reverse gears have syncros so that is why reverse seems to be more difficult to engage. Just because the clutch is engaged, does not mean the input shaft is stopped. As mentioned, if the disc has any drag [warped] it will transmit some movement.

Yes, putting it in another gear before reverse should stop the input shaft from turning.

 

Even my T5 , requires that I shift into 5th before reverse with clutch dis engaged .
kind of the nature of the beast .

 

I found the problem.

In my last adjustment, I extended the rod that went from the clutch pedal to the top of the Z-bar to try to push the release fork further. That must have gone too far, and now, the top of the Z-bar is bent forward, reducing its ability to actually push the release fork. At first, this must have resulted in some drag that cause the input shaft to keep moving, which resulted in the grind I get trying to shift into reverse. Now the problem has gotten bad enough that I have a hard time shifting into the forward gears while stopped.

Time to pull out the Z-bar and try to reinforce it. Or convert to hydraulic clutch. Argh.