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Payload Rating Frustrations

 
  #31  
Old 05-14-2019, 02:00 PM
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A friend of mine has a F250 diesel with a payload of 1,920 pounds. That is exactly 100 pounds more than my previous F150 .. . . . . . . .
 
  #32  
Old 05-14-2019, 02:01 PM
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Thankful for this forum when I was purchasing my truck last year. Questions answered and research done got me a truck with #4622 payload to haul a new truck camper. The dealer was clueless. If you study the Ford documentation all the info is there.
 
  #33  
Old 05-14-2019, 02:29 PM
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I will never understand the obsession with the payload sticker. It results from a simple mathematical equation; GVWR (assigned based on classification, not necessarily equipment) minus the weight of the truck. People routinely build less capable trucks to bolster the number on a sticker that as best I can tell has no legal significance for a non-commercial user. People talk as if at one pound under GVWR everything is cool and at one pound over the wheels fall off. It isn't difficult at all to apply a little logic to the situation and determine what the true capability of your truck is. This is not just applicable to the F-250 vs. F-350 discussion. Plenty of guys (probably most) with SRW F-350s are over their GVWR/payload ratings while hauling around their (modest) 15,000 lbs. fifth wheels. If you bought a F-250 you should have bought a F-350. If you bought a F-350 you should have bought a F-350 DRW. It will never end until we're all towing our pop-ups with Freighliners.
 
  #34  
Old 05-14-2019, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by JD'sBigredv10 View Post
I will never understand the obsession with the payload sticker. It results from a simple mathematical equation; GVWR (assigned based on classification, not necessarily equipment) minus the weight of the truck. People routinely build less capable trucks to bolster the number on a sticker that as best I can tell has no legal significance for a non-commercial user. People talk as if at one pound under GVWR everything is cool and at one pound over the wheels fall off. It isn't difficult at all to apply a little logic to the situation and determine what the true capability of your truck is. This is not just applicable to the F-250 vs. F-350 discussion. Plenty of guys (probably most) with SRW F-350s are over their GVWR/payload ratings while hauling around their (modest) 15,000 lbs. fifth wheels. If you bought a F-250 you should have bought a F-350. If you bought a F-350 you should have bought a F-350 DRW. It will never end until we're all towing our pop-ups with Freighliners.
this is too true
 
  #35  
Old 05-14-2019, 02:42 PM
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The assumption has been made that the weights on the door jamb are a LEAGAL max.
I CAN NOT find any laws in any states that use the door sticker as a legal limit.
First off. ALL states can make there own laws on vehicles, there are some federal DOT and such, but mostly each state can have it's own regulation.
In every state I have checked the legal max weight is
1, no more than 20,000lbs per axle except for busses and RVs, those are 24,000lbs

2, no more weight on an axle than the total weight capacity of all the tires on that axle (this is the one that will relate to most of us)
There are a lot more, but they all pertain to cormercial heavy trucks.
There also regulations as to what the vehicle is registered to, this usually is commercial vehicles.
In Oregon I can plate my pickup for almost a weight as long as I will pay for it.
Also, most states have several executions for farm and RVs when used for personal use.
So what I am saying is that from what I can tell the door sticker does no determan your max capacity in most, if not all the USA.
I did find that one proverance in Canada DOES go by the door sticker.
I am not saying that you are fine to be over your door sticker weights, I am saying that you are probably NOT braking any laws if you do.
I know ford in it lititure about the weight numbers does say that exceding them could put your rights to a warentee claim in jepordy.
If anyone can find actual laws that show me otherwise I would love to see them
 
  #36  
Old 05-14-2019, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe T View Post
Also are you doing commercial or RV? They might not count a camper or travel trailer against registered GVWR if its personal use. I would check the laws.

Outside of the white sticker rating on the doorjamb ford advertises recommenced GCWR and recommend max towing weights on their website.
Here in Ontario at least, commercial or not, the trailer doesn't impact the GVWR beyond it's tongue/pin weight. What makes a difference for the RV is our driver's license. With my current license (a 'G' class here) I can drive up to a max combination of 10,000 kgs (~22,000 lbs). Of that, the towed weight has to be less than 4,500 kgs (~9900 lbs) unless it's an RV connected as a fifth wheel. Those are exempt from the 4,500 kg rule, and can be heavier, but the total combined weight, even heavier, still has to be under the 10,000 kgs combined limit for my license.

None of that changes the fact that I have a 4491kg (9,900 lb) on my F250 (gasser). If I got pulled over and weighed, and I was over that 9,900 lbs rating, regardless of what was hooked up to the truck, I'd still be over.

Thankfully, our fifth wheel doesn't even come close to that. 7500 lbs, 1140 pin weight the day I brought it home. I don't have loaded weight with this particular unit yet, but using the loaded weight on the travel trailer it replaced as a guideline of how much our stuff weighs, we only have about 800 lbs of stuff we added. The truck has a 2840 payload. Scaled weight of the truck, with hitch, people, tonneau cover, bakbox, etc... gave me a curb weight of 8025. That leaves me wiggle room of 1875 lbs. Using that 1140 starting pin weight, that leaves 735 lbs of breathing room for our stuff's impact on the pin. That means I'd have to pretty much put all 800 lbs of stuff directly over the pin to be overweight with this setup.

Now, that's only because we run with a '1/2 ton towable' (yeah right!), ultralight fiver. Most standard fivers, you could be talking 2-3x the pin weight of ours, which would easily exceed my F250's capacity. For those thinking fiver, unless you have a specific fiver already in mind, and can pre-crunch the numbers every which way to Sunday like I did, then to keep your options open start with the F350.
 
  #37  
Old 05-14-2019, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by BK39 View Post
You are looking at in strictly on paper, with that numbers mind set. For some of us, for personal use, not commercial. It's all about the needs/wants. i need 4 doors bc of family. I wanted the diesel bc of the weight of 5th wheel. [...] Granted, the sticker on the truck says it's over loaded. But it pulls and stops just fine. (emphasis added)
Correct, because, when towing, it is a numbers game. It's not about seat-of-the-pants feel, instinct, emotion, or other things. Towing is about numbers.

Most people with a 1-ton I know are using for personal. In fact, among the construction workers I know, the 3/4 ton is actually more popular -- in a commercial world (at least here) anyone can drive the company 3/4 ton, but to drive the 1 ton requires a CDL.

A fully clothed family of four is going to be around 500 lbs (200 lb man, 130 lb woman, and two 100 lb kids). Add in some gear, firewood for the campfire, a 5th wheel hitch, and you'll be in the 900 lb range really quick. Add in a moderate 35' ultra lite 5th wheel with a dry weight of 9,500 lbs ... and add in 1,300 lbs for the real-world, wet weight. That's going to put 1,800 - 2,000 on your pin. That's going to require around 2,500 - 3,000 lbs of payload for that family trip with the 5er. That's not an F-250 diesel. Can you make it work? Sure ... smaller trailer, be careful to have nothing in your bed, get an ultra-lite 5th wheel hitch, and so on. Like I said above, it'll be a nail-biter with the F-250 diesel's limited payload.

As you said, you're violating your payload sticker. You're correct that that diesel engine will pull just fine. You'll have zero issues with the truck's pulling performance. Does payload matter? Does GVWR matter? Does GAWR matter? Can we just pick and choose which ratings we are going to obey and the rest are crap? I suppose, yes ... we can all do as we please. I just don't know why a person would have to compromise and accept being over payload ... which brings me to your other point:

Originally Posted by BK39 View Post
[...] I need the shorter truck for turning radius for everyday use. Ease of parallel parking downtown, in parking garages, in almost any parking spot in the city. Also, softer springs, it rides a tab better.[...]
I need those things, too, which I got in my F-350 CCSB ... which is dimensionally identical to the F-250 CCSB.

Driving, parking, getting into garages, navigating city traffic, and so on are exactly the same between F-250 and F-350. They're the same frame, same size, same length, same height, and same steering dynamics.

Front springs will be the same options in the 6.7. 5,200 to start, 5,600 as the first upgrade, and 5,990 with the 2-step upgrade. The F-350 will have a 5-pack leaf and the F-250 will have a 4-pack leaf. That could add to some ride difference, I suppose.

F-250 gasser is a beast. I don't understand the 3/4 diesel market due to the limited payload. I'd understand it a lot more if the 1 ton were significantly more expensive, but it's not.

Anyway, just opinions. Nobody is right or wrong, including me. The only real objective piece of info is that all these trucks do, in fact, have a payload rating and exceeding it is factual. The consequence of doing so can be debated.

Cheers.
 
  #38  
Old 05-14-2019, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by JD'sBigredv10 View Post
This is not just applicable to the F-250 vs. F-350 discussion. Plenty of guys (probably most) with SRW F-350s are over their GVWR/payload ratings while hauling around their (modest) 15,000 lbs. fifth wheels. If you bought a F-250 you should have bought a F-350. If you bought a F-350 you should have bought a F-350 DRW. It will never end until we're all towing our pop-ups with Freighliners.
Maybe we're saying the same thing, maybe not? I went from an F150 to an F350 dually and happily haul our 5,300 pound triple slide-out TC, whilst towing the UTV, and stay within the GAWR's. Those numbers on the sticker are there for a reason and are good indicators of a truck's capabilities given an experienced driver and proper setup. Also, there are larger differences between the F250's and F350's, depending on options, than have been mentioned here.

Everyone should do their own homework, grill their dealer, pay attention to the primary doorjamb sticker with GAWR's listed, get the Ford manuals and RTFM. Only you can say what you'll be comfortable with and the excuse of, "Well this one guy on the Internet said..." will be lame when you find you bought the wrong truck.
 
  #39  
Old 05-14-2019, 03:11 PM
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Using logic, it is not difficult to draw a distinction between ratings such as GVWR and the tire rating. The GVWR is not a result of testing but rather fitting the vehicle into a specific classification. The max GVWR for a class 2 vehicle is 10,000 lbs. and Ford wants to sell trucks in that classification. It is not a coincidence that Ford assigned that default 10,000 lbs. GVWR to all 6.7 F-250s. Because the GVWR is a fixed number, and payload is GVWR minus the truck weight, adding capability (long bed, fifth wheel prep, etc.) or anything that increases weight, will always lower your available payload. So, building a more capable truck results in less "capacity"..

The rating on tires is a result of scientific testing by the manufacturer. The tires on my F-250 Platinum are exactly the same as you will find on a SRW F-350 Platinum and carry the same rating. There is nothing arbitrary about it.
 
  #40  
Old 05-14-2019, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Alaskan_Warbird View Post
Maybe we're saying the same thing, maybe not? I went from an F150 to an F350 dually and happily haul our 5,300 pound triple slide-out TC, whilst towing the UTV, and stay within the GAWR's. Those numbers on the sticker are there for a reason and are good indicators of a truck's capabilities given an experienced driver and proper setup. Also, there are larger differences between the F250's and F350's, depending on options, than have been mentioned here.

Everyone should do their own homework, grill their dealer, pay attention to the primary doorjamb sticker with GAWR's listed, get the Ford manuals and RTFM. Only you can say what you'll be comfortable with and the excuse of, "Well this one guy on the Internet said..." will be lame when you find you bought the wrong truck.
You clearly bought the right truck for your application. From what I understand, going DRW with a big slide in camper is a game changer.

My point is, if you need (or want) the extra grunt of the 6.7, I say get it. Who cares if it cost you a few hundred pounds of payload capacity. You can to go with a F-450 instead of a F-350 and that will cost you some payload as well. So what? The F-450 is clearly built to a higher standard than the DRW F-350 but Ford wants to keep it a class 3 truck so it shares the same GVWR as the F-350. If you only focus on what the payload capacity sticker says, you might end up with a less capable truck.
 
  #41  
Old 05-14-2019, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by JD'sBigredv10 View Post
You clearly bought the right truck for your application. From what I understand, going DRW with a big slide in camper is a game changer.

My point is, if you need (or want) the extra grunt of the 6.7, I say get it. Who cares if it cost you a few hundred pounds of payload capacity. You can to go with a F-450 instead of a F-350 and that will cost you some payload as well. So what? The F-450 is clearly built to a higher standard than the DRW F-350 but Ford wants to keep it a class 3 truck so it shares the same GVWR as the F-350. If you only focus on what the payload capacity sticker says, you might end up with a less capable truck.
Gotcha, and agreed. What floors me is the number of guys buying these super expensive trucks almost completely blind. Me? I was downloading manuals and RTFM'ing, asking questions here at FTE, at the dealer's lot climbing underneath of trucks, and trying to project out future use cases. But I probably went a bit overkill.
 
  #42  
Old 05-14-2019, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Alaskan_Warbird View Post
Gotcha, and agreed. What floors me is the number of guys buying these super expensive trucks almost completely blind. Me? I was downloading manuals and RTFM'ing, asking questions here at FTE, at the dealer's lot climbing underneath of trucks, and trying to project out future use cases. But I probably went a bit overkill.
I knew exactly what I was doing as well. Because of unusual circumstances with my employer (they pay for most of my truck payment and fuel), I simply could not purchase a Class 3 truck. I tried but they would not budge stating that both the Class 3 truck and I would be subject to DOT requirements. I special ordered the most capable and comfortable F-250 I could. When hitched to my trailer I am over my GVWR and payload but under every other rating. I am 100% comfortable with the setup. Just got back from a 1600 mile trip with my new 12,000 GVW trailer in tow and the combination was flawless.

If I did not have the unusual (and fortunate) deal with my company, I definitely would have bought a 350. Going with the HCTTP F-250 cost the same. Why wouldn't I want the real capability (which I already have with my 250) and paper capacity of the 350? I just think it foolish for someone who already has a F-250 to feel like they are stuck in a bad situation. They might be but it is not cut and dry. Things are likely not a bad as they might seem if all you're looking at is the payload sticker.
 
  #43  
Old 05-14-2019, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by BoWin123 View Post
Honestly, I'm surprised by the responses I'm getting here. I expected a lot more "that's your own fault, idiot" than I've received.
Ok, I’ll say it. That’s your own fault, idiot! I can say this because it comes from me, another idiot. I’m on my 4th new truck and 2nd RV in 3 years.

I had a 4 month old 2016 F150 w/2.7L eco boost. I traded it on for 2016 F150 w/3.5L EB so I could tow a 7700 lb Travel Trailer. It towed horribly with lots of sway and the trailer was in charge. So I installed Airbags, no change. I increased the spring bars on the WD hutch, no change. I bought a $2500 ProPride hitch which reduced 90% of the scary handling. By then my wife was gun shy about traveling with the trailer.

So so I decided to by a 14000 lb 5th wheel and a diesel F250. By then I was more educated and looked at payload stickers. WTH, a Diesel F250 only had 100 lbs more payload then my F150.

So I bought a F350 off the dealer lot with 3500 lbs of payload after looking at payload stickers. While shopping for a super duty my very smart wife asked me if I should buy a 350, 450 or 550 so we didn’t make the same mistake. I love her.

Two years later I traded the 2017 F350 in on a special ordered 2019 F350 equipped exactly how I wanted it. It came with 3,523 lbs of payload. It’s a perfect match to my 14,000 lb 5th wheel.

So please don’t feel like the idiots that we are. You are in good company and now your are more educated and will make an informed decision.

Note: this idiot, just last Saturday, traded in a 1 year old 2018 Nissan Electric Leaf and a 2 month old Ford Focus Titanium on a 2019 Nissan Leaf SL Plus with 250 miles of electric range. This was my 57th new car purchase since 1970. My wife says that’s idiotic and I shouldn’t let anyone know, so please don’t pass it on.
 
  #44  
Old 05-14-2019, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by 67L48 View Post
Correct, because, when towing, it is a numbers game. It's not about seat-of-the-pants feel, instinct, emotion, or other things. Towing is about numbers.

Most people with a 1-ton I know are using for personal. In fact, among the construction workers I know, the 3/4 ton is actually more popular -- in a commercial world (at least here) anyone can drive the company 3/4 ton, but to drive the 1 ton requires a CDL.

A fully clothed family of four is going to be around 500 lbs (200 lb man, 130 lb woman, and two 100 lb kids). Add in some gear, firewood for the campfire, a 5th wheel hitch, and you'll be in the 900 lb range really quick. Add in a moderate 35' ultra lite 5th wheel with a dry weight of 9,500 lbs ... and add in 1,300 lbs for the real-world, wet weight. That's going to put 1,800 - 2,000 on your pin. That's going to require around 2,500 - 3,000 lbs of payload for that family trip with the 5er. That's not an F-250 diesel. Can you make it work? Sure ... smaller trailer, be careful to have nothing in your bed, get an ultra-lite 5th wheel hitch, and so on. Like I said above, it'll be a nail-biter with the F-250 diesel's limited payload.

As you said, you're violating your payload sticker. You're correct that that diesel engine will pull just fine. You'll have zero issues with the truck's pulling performance. Does payload matter? Does GVWR matter? Does GAWR matter? Can we just pick and choose which ratings we are going to obey and the rest are crap? I suppose, yes ... we can all do as we please. I just don't know why a person would have to compromise and accept being over payload ... which brings me to your other point:


I need those things, too, which I got in my F-350 CCSB ... which is dimensionally identical to the F-250 CCSB.

Driving, parking, getting into garages, navigating city traffic, and so on are exactly the same between F-250 and F-350. They're the same frame, same size, same length, same height, and same steering dynamics.

Front springs will be the same options in the 6.7. 5,200 to start, 5,600 as the first upgrade, and 5,990 with the 2-step upgrade. The F-350 will have a 5-pack leaf and the F-250 will have a 4-pack leaf. That could add to some ride difference, I suppose.

F-250 gasser is a beast. I don't understand the 3/4 diesel market due to the limited payload. I'd understand it a lot more if the 1 ton were significantly more expensive, but it's not.

Anyway, just opinions. Nobody is right or wrong, including me. The only real objective piece of info is that all these trucks do, in fact, have a payload rating and exceeding it is factual. The consequence of doing so can be debated.

Cheers.

So yeah the f250 is more popular in commercial which is why I have one for the various reasons stated. When hooking up to a trailer the payload goes out the window. Its also pretty rare for me to haul over 2500lbs in the bed of the truck (my yellow sticker is like 2140lbs I think) which it can do just fine.

So there is your 6.7 F250 Platinum diesel market in a nutshell. 14k rated gooseneck to almost full axle capacity on the rear of the truck and also trailer.

Otherwise you are CDL driving hot shot in an F350, commercial service body on a stripper 2wd gas F250, a personal use RV guy in an F350 diesel with a big 5th wheel, or a personal use RV guy in an F250 diesel with a regular sized 5th wheel.
 
  #45  
Old 05-14-2019, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by 17 Oaks View Post
IMO:

At the Super Duty level, Ford has 2 trucks, F 350/450, not sure what the 250 does for anyone. If you are looking at dollars then the 250 is no bargain as for a few dollars more you get a 350, try it, I did, do an online build 1 on 1 250 vs 350 same same, I was apart by less than a $1k bucks and a lot more truck. When I did the same build: F 350 vs F 450 King Ranch, CC, LB there was $14xx difference.
A lot of states/localities see a pickup over 10k GVWR as a commercial vehicle. Registration fees, taxes, insurance...even drivers licenses...all can add up to a F350 costing many thousands of dollars a year over a F250. This is why the 3/4-ton trucks still exist....stupid laws revolving around numbers.
 

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