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Heavier Duty Shock Absorbers?

 
  #16  
Old 03-13-2019, 07:18 PM
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Did you do front and rear springs from ATS ?

if so can you post a pic of the rear spring ?
 
  #17  
Old 03-14-2019, 12:46 PM
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Yes, I worked with Junior @ATS to upgrade the front/rear to their V/C code kit with all hardware, U-bolts, shackles, etc.

 
  #18  
Old 03-14-2019, 04:47 PM
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Looking at your rear spring it looks like a f250 dual rate spring which would be 330/670 rate,

that works for the trucks because the rear of the vehicle vehicle weighs less then the Excursion when it is unloaded so driving without a payload it is riding on the 330 lbs inch spring pack, then when you put a payload on the truck it adds the 670 spring rate for the last 2” of travel,

Using that setup on the Excursion, as you can see at unloaded ( I assume you are unloaded in that pic ) the main spring pack is already just about on the secondary 670 lbs in spring.

Basically this means you have maybe 3” of up travel left on a what is now a 1000 lbs in spring. Not only is that way to much spring that will ride poorly but your shocks are not anywhere close to valved correctly for them which makes the ride even worse.

I would never setup a excursion or passanger vehicle with that stradigy, it works ok for pick up trucks but is less then ideal for a SUV. To add insult to injury you also reengineered your suspension and kept the block, given that you changed springs you could have easily done away with the block and improved traction, axle wrap and body roll and shock frequency by going to a single rate spring in the 380 lbs inch range.

Hopefully that made sence, trying to explain it in simple terms and keep it short
 
  #19  
Old 03-14-2019, 05:28 PM
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Wow, thanks again for more insight. So, what you are telling me is that I worked with a FTE-sponsor and recommended go-to replacement leaf-spring source ATS and based on what you're seeing they sold me up the river and I'm totally phucked? That the product that they spec'ed for my EX is completely bollocks? Really? Also, how in the world would taking the (bump-stop) block out of the stack make it better?

'll freely admit that I'm not an expert on spring rate calculation, shock valving, and suspension set-up, hence my reliance on those that have gone before me in this forum with the same type of vehicle. Reading your threads, build information, and personal truck-tweaking experience that you have I woudl not pretend to be able to lead a suspension discussion if you were in the room. Seriously, props to you! But, researching FTE, Junior at ATS was THE go-to guy to get this set-up. Per their website, the V-codes at the front are 3(W)X27-1/2(S.E.)X28-1/8(L.E.) 2 Lvs Full Taper 1-3/16 Pack Thickness 2,230 Lbs Capacity, the C-codes at the rear are 3(W)X25(S.E.)X33-1/4(L.E.) 4/1 Lvs 1/360 3/341 1/827 3,300 Lbs Capacity. If this set-up is incompatible for use on the EX platform, why would it have been suggested in multiple places on FTE and by Junior himself?
 
  #20  
Old 03-14-2019, 06:47 PM
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Interesting stuff. We have helped literally countless people with their Excursions on this forum, many other forums and people across the country to help fix their suspension issues and figure out the best option for their rigs depending on what they are trying to do with it. That help has come from the end result of a sale with one of our kits or us leading the customer in the right direction, even if that means a sale with another company. To make a statement like you did is just not correct. People who have spoken to me, purchased products from ATS and came back for tech questions and just questions in general know right off the bat that I am not one to just sell someone something to make a dollar. The Ford Excursion is by far my most favorite SUV on the road and even though we are in business to sell suspension products I truly enjoy working with other people around the country who also share the same interests and obsessions with this vehicle.

The spring setup you are criticizing is a great option for customers who are wanting to upgrade their suspension without going crazy with height and much larger tires. This isn't the first time we have had to deal with individuals on this forum (surprisingly even some moderators trying to call us out and our products for no reason).

I won't be responding to this any further. Instead, we will focus our efforts on helping more customers out with making sure they are getting the parts they want and need to make their truck sit and drive the way they want.

Have a great night gentlemen!

-Junior
 
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  #21  
Old 03-14-2019, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ATS Junior View Post
Interesting stuff. We have helped literally countless people with their Excursions on this forum, many other forums and people across the country to help fix their suspension issues and figure out the best option for their rigs depending on what they are trying to do with it. That help has come from the end result of a sale with one of our kits or us leading the customer in the right direction, even if that means a sale with another company. To make a statement like you did is just not correct. People who have spoken to me, purchased products from ATS and came back for tech questions and just questions in general know right off the bat that I am not one to just sell someone something to make a dollar. The Ford Excursion is by far my most favorite SUV on the road and even though we are in business to sell suspension products I truly enjoy working with other people around the country who also share the same interests and obsessions with this vehicle.

The spring setup you are criticizing is a great option for customers who are wanting to upgrade their suspension without going crazy with height and much larger tires. This isn't the first time we have had to deal with individuals on this forum (surprisingly even some moderators trying to call us out and our products for no reason).

I won't be responding to this any further. Instead, we will focus our efforts on helping more customers out with making sure they are getting the parts they want and need to make their truck sit and drive the way they want.

Have a great night gentlemen!

-Junior

I am not questioning your customer service or your reputation, from what I have read both are good and you have worked hard to earn them. my hats off to you for that.

My statement is my opinion however and as such I don't believe that those spring design is an ideal setup for the Excursion for the very reasons I stated, you can choose to defend the reasons why you choose a dual rate setup where the first rate has very little travel before engaging the second rate or don't, you don't owe me anything because I am not your customer and if your customers don't care then more power to you. keep selling what you have.

My opinion is is just that, an opinion however, I have done a considerable amount of suspension engineering on the Excursion and other vehicles and I also know how and why that F250 dual rate springs became popular on the excursion well before you began offering them for sale.
back before anybody was marketing a spring to the Excursion crowd, guys trying to find a cure for the wandering Ex and wanting an increase in ride height started going to the junk yards and swapping in F250 spring into the Ex, the junk yard F250 mod became popular and still is.
If your customers choose to buy that spring from you instead of getting one at the junk yard then more power to you, cash their checks, But when a fellow forum member is asking about suspensions I will continue to sharemy knowledge of spring design and setup based on what I have done and learned., if anything that I claim is wrong then feel free to discuss the tech and show me otherwise. again, I don't believe I have said anything despairing about you personally or your company and have kept my comments solely on the spring tech.

If you guys believe that spring design is the ideal setup for the Ex and want to sell it and your customers want to buy it then cudos to you, carry on. if you want to engage in a spring technical conversation then I would welcome that as well. in the end everybody wants to gain knowledge on the subject so share your tech, or don't. either way its up to you and I respect that.
 
  #22  
Old 03-14-2019, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by brannman View Post
Wow, thanks again for more insight. So, what you are telling me is that I worked with a FTE-sponsor and recommended go-to replacement leaf-spring source ATS and based on what you're seeing they sold me up the river and I'm totally phucked? That the product that they spec'ed for my EX is completely bollocks? Really? Also, how in the world would taking the (bump-stop) block out of the stack make it better?

'll freely admit that I'm not an expert on spring rate calculation, shock valving, and suspension set-up, hence my reliance on those that have gone before me in this forum with the same type of vehicle. Reading your threads, build information, and personal truck-tweaking experience that you have I woudl not pretend to be able to lead a suspension discussion if you were in the room. Seriously, props to you! But, researching FTE, Junior at ATS was THE go-to guy to get this set-up. Per their website, the V-codes at the front are 3(W)X27-1/2(S.E.)X28-1/8(L.E.) 2 Lvs Full Taper 1-3/16 Pack Thickness 2,230 Lbs Capacity, the C-codes at the rear are 3(W)X25(S.E.)X33-1/4(L.E.) 4/1 Lvs 1/360 3/341 1/827 3,300 Lbs Capacity. If this set-up is incompatible for use on the EX platform, why would it have been suggested in multiple places on FTE and by Junior himself?
I don't believe you are plucked, I believe just what I said, that spring design is not the ideal setup for the excursion and shared my reason why I think that.

removing the block and mounting the spring to the axle reduces the twisting leverage on the spring, the reason Ford used the anti-wrap bar ( the very bottom leaf with the rubber snubber ) is to counter act the effects of that additional leverage, in the F250 pack like you are using the thick bottom leaf (overload spring ) serves the same function, it is such a high spring rate that the axle can"t over come its resistance and bend the spring pack, the additional advantage of the overload spring vs the Excursion anti-wrap bar is that the over load spring is effective on both acceleration and braking unlike the Ex anti-wrap bar that just works on acceleration. by mounting the spring to the axle the effective leverage is reduced enough that typically no provisions need to be made for axle wrap as there is not enough force to twist the spring, unless of course you are running a good deal more torque then stock.

spring capacity, spring capacity is simply the springs travel x the spring rate, the goal is to have the capacity meet your payload needs and it cane be achieved in different ways.

you can use a lower spring rate and a longer travel ( typically called just that, a long travel suspension ) or a shorter travel and a higher spring rate ( the stock excursion setup) or you can use a combination of the 2 like the f250 ( and your spring ) does.

which one you choose depends on your intended usage and the desired ride quality.

A long travel setup as I mentioned allows the use of a lighter spring rate and can give a better ride using its lighter spring rate
A short travel setup generally uses a higher spring rate because less suspension and percentage of the travel is used at ride height.
a long travel with a heavy secondary like you are using is best suited to a vehicle where the unloaded payload is light and during unloaded travel the suspension can use more travel proving a better ride quality, then when loaded it squats down onto the heavy secondary to support the high payload, at this point however there is little travel left and ride quality is considerably more firm then when it is riding on the lighter primary spring.

my comments about it not being the ideal setup are based on the evidence in your pic that at ride height your lighter spring rate is all used up and you are nearly onto the heavier secondary spring,
simply put, your shocks are valved for the higher portion of the travel and as such do a poor job of controlling the springs speed and movement, like I said, less than ideal.
 
  #23  
Old 03-14-2019, 09:02 PM
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Here is the graph directly off of Fordís bluepring on the C code spring.

you can see it had a capacity of 2998 lbs in.
that capacity is figured by the primary spring at 297 lbs in and travel 5.15 inch before it transitions to the secondary, the primary spring contributes 1650 lbs to the total capacity.

at the transition the secondary bottom spring is engaged and has 2Ē of total travel with a spring rate of 603 lbs inch alone and 900 lbs inch combined, the secondary portion of the spring handles 1348 pound of capacity in its 2Ē of travel

on the F250 ride height is the green line ( listed as curb ) and the red line is approximately where the suspension is at ride height. As you can see the majority of your travel is with the primary engaged.

Like I stated, this is not how I would design the Excursions rear suspension or how I set mine up, as to why you choose it or why ATS designed it is like this is unknow to me, I could only speculated and I have not done so other then to say it is less then ideal, at least my ideal. Your ideal may be diffrent but at least now you know what you have or approximately since you didnít confirm the spring rates.
 
  #24  
Old 03-14-2019, 09:50 PM
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I don’t know about all this tech talk but I have X and Modified C’s (both “heavier” than V’s and regular C’s) from ATS and love the way my Excursion rides even though the shocks need upgrading. 2” front shackles, hangers, 4” tapered rear block and a Hellwig Big Rig rear sway bar. I run 95-100 quite often and even with 35” rubber it steers itself, I can let go and it tracks perfectly and this is without any alignment after I installed them. 11,000 miles later and no issues. I don’t like needing airbags to keep my *** end from squatting with my 18’ pipe trailer and Kubota L3400 front end loader tractor in tow. That’s all I’ve got.
 
  #25  
Old 03-14-2019, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by SmackDaddy View Post
I donít know about all this tech talk but I have X and Modified Cís (both ďheavierĒ than Vís and regular Cís) from ATS and love the way my Excursion rides even though the shocks need upgrading. 2Ē front shackles, hangers, 4Ē tapered rear block and a Hellwig Big Rig rear sway bar. I run 95-100 quite often and even with 35Ē rubber it steers itself, I can let go and it tracks perfectly and this is without any alignment after I installed them. 11,000 miles later and no issues. I donít like needing airbags to keep my *** end from squatting with my 18í pipe trailer and Kubota L3400 front end loader tractor in tow. Thatís all Iíve got.
you donít specify how you ďmoddedĒ the C code spring pack but if it is similar to the popular ( junk yard ) method of adding the bottom 2 leafs from the excursion pack the C codes then you have increased the main spring rate to close to what the stock excursion came with. So You can assume the modded C would have a spring rate of about 400 lbs inch and 5.9Ē of travel before it engages with the secondary, with that much travel I will speculate you rarely if ever engage the secondary spring, Because you are mostly riding around on a stock-ish spring rate that has more travel your ride height is increased but you are more closely replicating factory leaf design ( at least the part that is being used ) and the ride will be similar to stock, doing it this way is better for the simple fact that shocks are tuned for this and readly available.

Here is the graph from the Ford on the stock excursion spring pack.
green dot is where the spring is at in its travel at ride height
red dot is where the secondary kicks in
blue dot is the GAWR or gross axle weight rating which is 5200 total or 2600 per spring.
the total capacity would technically be at about 4400 at the end of the chart

bottom line is this is a much better spring setup because most of your travel is at the stock ( ish ) spring rate and you have likely gains about 2Ē over stock. The excess weight capacity offer by the overload really isnít hurting anything as itís mainly acting as a anti-wrap bar and a stiff overload spring.
 
  #26  
Old 03-14-2019, 11:02 PM
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To be through I suppose I should add,
while a decent setup it still wouldn’t be my ideal, if you are changing springs why not just use a longer 400 lbs inch spring and eliminate the block, ( actuall I’ve found 350-375 more to my liking but that’s besides the point 400 works especially if you don’t like the idea of air bags )


 
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Old 03-15-2019, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by pirate4x4_camo View Post
To be through I suppose I should add,
while a decent setup it still wouldnít be my ideal, if you are changing springs why not just use a longer 400 lbs inch spring and eliminate the block, ( actuall Iíve found 350-375 more to my liking but thatís besides the point 400 works especially if you donít like the idea of air bags )


I bought the Mod Cís from Junior last year and they come ready to install. I did the rears the first day and fronts the second day by my self. I donít need air bags, I was just stating I donít understand air bags unless you like the softer ride then air up to tow. Maybe I donít know what Iím missing but I am thoroughly pleased with the way it performs in every aspect. It definitely rides like a truck but thatís what it is. I appreciate all the knowledge you bring to this forum, you definitely know your stuff.
 
  #28  
Old 03-15-2019, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by SmackDaddy View Post

I bought the Mod Cís from Junior last year and they come ready to install. I did the rears the first day and fronts the second day by my self. I donít need air bags, I was just stating I donít understand air bags unless you like the softer ride then air up to tow. Maybe I donít know what Iím missing but I am thoroughly pleased with the way it performs in every aspect. It definitely rides like a truck but thatís what it is. I appreciate all the knowledge you bring to this forum, you definitely know your stuff.
thank you, I enjoy sharing the knowledge with fellow enthusiast.

You get the jist of air bags, essentially it allow you to design a suspension with a lower primary spring rate and shock package giving a nice ride quality for daily driving but is adjustable for increased payloads, with your springs you donít need an airbag because it is already designed and tuned for maximum GVWR, You give up some ride comfort and handeling options doing it this way but it works as is perfectly acceptable.
 
 


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