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New '19 f250 moves around while towing

 
  #46  
Old 03-09-2019, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Army RET View Post
Your previous RAM experience has no bearing on your current situation.

My opinion is that ALL tires (truck and 5th) should be aired up to recommended pressures (as noted on the truck door jam/ side of 5th). Additionally the truck should NOT exceed its rated cargo specs (also noted in the door jam).

Lastly the 5th should be loaded with 20%-25% of its total weight on the pin. If that exceeds your trucks allowable cargo weight then you purchased too little truck for the load.

JMHO.
^^^^ You nailed it!
 
  #47  
Old 03-09-2019, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Army RET View Post
"Fordís guidance for 5th-wheel trailer pin weight is 15%."

While 15% is fine for a bumper pull the RV community would beg to differ with that notion while pulling a 5th wheel.
Originally Posted by xrated View Post
Real world/everyday guidance for pin weight of camping type trailers........20+ percent of the GVW
Interesting. Not sure why, but interesting.

Regards,
Jim / crewzer
 
  #48  
Old 03-09-2019, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by SDcrewzer View Post




Interesting. Not sure why, but interesting.

Regards,
Jim / crewzer
It's really pretty simple when you think about it. A camping trailer is built with the weight distribution more as a "fixed" amount of pin weight....it is what it is. That's not saying that you can't move some things around a bit in the trailer when storing the items that you take with you, but storage areas are what they are and located where they are. Consequently, the pin weight, as a good rule of thumb will usually come up to 20-25% of the weight of the loaded trailer. Also, it's a good rule of thumb to follow when trying to size the truck capacity that you will need to calculate the entire GVWR of the trailer. A 15K empty trailer that can be loaded to 18K GVWR, it's good to figure 20-25% of that GVWR for the pin weight when sizing a truck. 20% of the 18K would be 3600 lbs of pin weight. 25% of the 18K would be 4500 lbs of pin weight.

You may never reach the full GVWR of the trailer for your usage, but you will still have enough truck if you do the calculations this way and buy a truck that will handle that amount of pin weight. The other side of the coin (the part about Ford and the rest of them using the 15% pin weight) is that towing a camper type trailer is a whole different animal than towing a flat bed type equipment trailer. In those applications, the load of the equipment can be placed further forward on the trailer, further back on the trailer, or pretty much over the center of the axles. This allows you vary the pin weight dramatically. Front loading would obviously increase the pin weight, rear loading would lighten the pin weight, and over axle loading would be somewhere in between on the pin weights. The camping trailer, as I alluded to above, does NOT give you that flexibility to move the load around nearly as much as a flat bed does. So the result is that many/most of the camping trailers are in the 20-25% of the trailer weight for the pin.

The one exception to this is the Toy Haulers that are big enough to carry significant weight in the rear garage area (behind the axles of the trailer) and affect the overall pin weight significantly. Imagine putting a couple thousand pound in the rear of the trailer, and all of it is behind the axles. That will lighten the pin weight quite a lot. And it's not like you can place them directly over the axles, the garage is located behind the wheels/axles so once again, it is what it is. My guess is that Ford and the others are advising for more of the Farm/work/utility end of their business more than the camper/Toy Hauler/RVer end of their business. Which is fine, until you are buying the truck to pull your new camper and go by that advice and think.....Oh yea, the SRW F350 should be plenty of truck for my 15% pin weight and then they get hooked up to the new truck and take it to the CAT scale and discover that they are overloaded on the payload capacity because their trailer pin is more like 22-23% of the loaded trailer weight.

That's when they post to the forums and start asking about trucks and truck sizes.........do I need a Dually.....is my F250 able to tow my 40' long 15K weight trailer? will I be ok hauling this? Some will realize that they've made a huge mistake, some will argue that your advice about being overloaded just can't be true (the salesman told me it would be OK), and some will simply ignore the fact that they are anywhere from overloaded to OMG overloaded. But by then, they've spent a ton of money on their new truck, it's painfully overloaded, and they simply cannot afford to take the hit on a trade in for a truck that is big enough for their towing needs.

I fell into the "unknowing" category several years ago when I bought my F250. I didn't know squat about heaving towing and just figured that hey, I've got a 3/4T Diesel truck and I should be able to tow about anything I want to buy to tow behind it. I was wrong of course, fought the battles with trying to make my trailer work with that truck, and finally and fortunately was able to get a Dually truck.....which was way more truck than I need for that trailer, but it sure came in handy when I traded that trailer in and bought a new Toy Hauler last weekend that has a GVWR of 20,000 lbs
 
  #49  
Old 03-09-2019, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by SDcrewzer View Post
Interesting. Not sure why, but interesting.
Marketing? I dunno. Maybe for the same reason they make it difficult (for the uninitiated) to figure out trailer capacities on their towing tables. When you build a truck on the website it _should_ be possible to show the cargo capacity for that specific build. But it doesn't
 
  #50  
Old 03-09-2019, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by xrated View Post
It's really pretty simple when you think about it. A camping trailer is built with the weight distribution more as a "fixed" amount of pin weight....it is what it is. That's not saying that you can't move some things around a bit in the trailer when storing the items that you take with you, but storage areas are what they are and located where they are. Consequently, the pin weight, as a good rule of thumb will usually come up to 20-25% of the weight of the loaded trailer. Also, it's a good rule of thumb to follow when trying to size the truck capacity that you will need to calculate the entire GVWR of the trailer. A 15K empty trailer that can be loaded to 18K GVWR, it's good to figure 20-25% of that GVWR for the pin weight when sizing a truck. 20% of the 18K would be 3600 lbs of pin weight. 25% of the 18K would be 4500 lbs of pin weight.

You may never reach the full GVWR of the trailer for your usage, but you will still have enough truck if you do the calculations this way and buy a truck that will handle that amount of pin weight. The other side of the coin (the part about Ford and the rest of them using the 15% pin weight) is that towing a camper type trailer is a whole different animal than towing a flat bed type equipment trailer. In those applications, the load of the equipment can be placed further forward on the trailer, further back on the trailer, or pretty much over the center of the axles. This allows you vary the pin weight dramatically. Front loading would obviously increase the pin weight, rear loading would lighten the pin weight, and over axle loading would be somewhere in between on the pin weights. The camping trailer, as I alluded to above, does NOT give you that flexibility to move the load around nearly as much as a flat bed does. So the result is that many/most of the camping trailers are in the 20-25% of the trailer weight for the pin.

The one exception to this is the Toy Haulers that are big enough to carry significant weight in the rear garage area (behind the axles of the trailer) and affect the overall pin weight significantly. Imagine putting a couple thousand pound in the rear of the trailer, and all of it is behind the axles. That will lighten the pin weight quite a lot. And it's not like you can place them directly over the axles, the garage is located behind the wheels/axles so once again, it is what it is. My guess is that Ford and the others are advising for more of the Farm/work/utility end of their business more than the camper/Toy Hauler/RVer end of their business. Which is fine, until you are buying the truck to pull your new camper and go by that advice and think.....Oh yea, the SRW F350 should be plenty of truck for my 15% pin weight and then they get hooked up to the new truck and take it to the CAT scale and discover that they are overloaded on the payload capacity because their trailer pin is more like 22-23% of the loaded trailer weight.

That's when they post to the forums and start asking about trucks and truck sizes.........do I need a Dually.....is my F250 able to tow my 40' long 15K weight trailer? will I be ok hauling this? Some will realize that they've made a huge mistake, some will argue that your advice about being overloaded just can't be true (the salesman told me it would be OK), and some will simply ignore the fact that they are anywhere from overloaded to OMG overloaded. But by then, they've spent a ton of money on their new truck, it's painfully overloaded, and they simply cannot afford to take the hit on a trade in for a truck that is big enough for their towing needs.

I fell into the "unknowing" category several years ago when I bought my F250. I didn't know squat about heaving towing and just figured that hey, I've got a 3/4T Diesel truck and I should be able to tow about anything I want to buy to tow behind it. I was wrong of course, fought the battles with trying to make my trailer work with that truck, and finally and fortunately was able to get a Dually truck.....which was way more truck than I need for that trailer, but it sure came in handy when I traded that trailer in and bought a new Toy Hauler last weekend that has a GVWR of 20,000 lbs
Pretty good post.

To bad it will fall on deaf ears or blind eyes for some. It's easier to just not bother in those threads.
 
  #51  
Old 03-09-2019, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by SDcrewzer View Post




Interesting. Not sure why, but interesting.

Regards,
Jim / crewzer
If you read all of xrated post, he says it is hard or impossible to buy a fifthwheel rv with 15 percent pin weight
 
  #52  
Old 03-09-2019, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by scraprat View Post
Pretty good post.

To bad it will fall on deaf ears or blind eyes for some. It's easier to just not bother in those threads.
I know that it's easier to just not bother, and I too may someday just finally give up.....but, after the HUGE mistake I made several years ago and remembering how much money it cost me to trade trucks and get something that was more than enough truck, I still try to help folks with towing/capacity stuff when I can. Some will listen, some will argue, and some will totally ignore, but at least I tried. You can lead a horse to the watering hole, but you can't make them drink.
 
  #53  
Old 03-09-2019, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Wotf8 View Post
If you read all of xrated post, he says it is hard or impossible to buy a fifthwheel rv with 15 percent pin weight
If I'm not mistaken, the lowest pin weight that I've ever seen anyone post about with a 5ver camping style trailer was 18% of the trailer weight. Most are in the 20 to maybe all the way up to 24-25%. There aren't many 3/4T trucks that can deal with a 5ver much over 10 to 11K. A basic regular cab work truck with no options and a big gas motor and 2WD might get you up close to 3K payload, but how many people do you know that wants that kind of truck to take themselves and their families for a week or weekend of camping. Look at all the "Luxury" trucks out there (I've got one myself...a King Ranch) and then look for the work trucks like I just described and see how many of them are pulling RVs.
 
  #54  
Old 03-09-2019, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by xrated View Post
I know that it's easier to just not bother, and I too may someday just finally give up.....but, after the HUGE mistake I made several years ago and remembering how much money it cost me to trade trucks and get something that was more than enough truck, I still try to help folks with towing/capacity stuff when I can. Some will listen, some will argue, and some will totally ignore, but at least I tried. You can lead a horse to the watering hole, but you can't make them drink.
You have to fight the good fight. Not everyone that takes your advice will heed it and those that do take your advice may never acknowledge it. An overloaded truck may seem to do OK on the flats, but bring it up here to the Rocky Mountains with 11,000' mountain passes and the experience will be far different. Reps intended for that post. Somebody throw some his way for me, eh?
 
  #55  
Old 03-09-2019, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by xrated View Post
If I'm not mistaken, the lowest pin weight that I've ever seen anyone post about with a 5ver camping style trailer was 18% of the trailer weight. Most are in the 20 to maybe all the way up to 24-25%. There aren't many 3/4T trucks that can deal with a 5ver much over 10 to 11K. A basic regular cab work truck with no options and a big gas motor and 2WD might get you up close to 3K payload, but how many people do you know that wants that kind of truck to take themselves and their families for a week or weekend of camping. Look at all the "Luxury" trucks out there (I've got one myself...a King Ranch) and then look for the work trucks like I just described and see how many of them are pulling RVs.
I got "lucky" when I found mine. Door jamb sticker is rated for 3156 lbs of payload. But gas engine and extended cab helps a bunch.
 
  #56  
Old 03-09-2019, 10:16 PM
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Ford can make 3/4 ton diesels with 3,000 lbs of payload. For whatever reason they haven't done it lately. My 2002 3/4 ton diesel seats 5 comfortably, has an 8 ft bed, and has 3,000 lbs of payload. Believe it or not, the GVWR on the door is a lean 9,200 lbs. Handles and pulls our 10,000 lb fiver in a way that I have no desire to even go look at a new truck.

I have no desire for a longer or heavier camper though I would not hesitate to hook up to the OP's camper and take it for a spin if it would help isolate the cause of the truck's wondering front end. If the OP has a buddy nearby that could do that, it might cut down the guess work.

 
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Old 03-10-2019, 07:52 AM
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I should double clarify that it isn't horrible, just not as good as the ram was. If I had never towed with the ram, I likely wouldn't of asked anything as I wouldn't have anything to compare too. Last night I tried flipping through ford's specs again and found two things, one it says the center line of the kinpin needs to be at a minimum of 2 inches ahead of the axle for best towing results. (not sure mine is that far ahead, will check) and also it lists a lower max trailer weight if you have the trailer tow package with a crewcab shortbox 4x4. Am I reading it wrong?
 
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Old 03-10-2019, 10:45 AM
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It depends on what you're reading. I'm looking at column 8, line 15, assuming that is your truck with a 3.31 rear end. Two lines below that is a higher capacity with a footnote that it requires the Trailer Tow Package.

None of that matters. Look at the sticker on your driver side door panel that lists the cargo capacity. The chance of the truck having enough cargo capacity to handle that max trailer weight is close to zero.
 
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Old 03-10-2019, 10:58 AM
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The fifth-wheel pin must indeed be ahead of the rear axle centerline. Assuming a 160” wheelbase, if the pin is ~3” ahead of the rear axle centerline, then ~98% of the pin weight will be carried by the rear suspension, axle, and tires, and ~2% by the front suspension, axle, and tires.

If the pin weight is behind the rear axle centerline, then the rear suspension, axle, and tires are carrying a load greater than the pin weight due to leverage multiplication, and the front suspension, axle, and tires carry corresponding less. In extreme cases, the rear could easily be overloaded and the front end could get noticeably lighter.

The High Capacity Trailer Tow Package (optional with an F250 with optional 6.7 diesel) replaces the Sterling rear axle with a Dana product, and, depending on truck configuration, it adds one- or two leaves to each rear spring pack. With the right size tires and appropriate inflation pressures one could argue that the result is an F350 diesel in everything but name. This package increases the F250’s GCWR, but does not officially increase the F250’s GVWR or its payload. In fact, it’s possible that the added weight of the mechanical upgrades would reduce the truck’s official payload.

HT(,
Jim crewzer
 
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Old 03-10-2019, 05:01 PM
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That is what I was thinking, with the diesel crewcab 4x4 it makes it heavier and actually reduces the payload and max trailer weight.
 

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