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Carli 4.5" lift kit vs Full Traction Coilover kit

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Carli 4.5" lift kit vs Full Traction Coilover kit

 
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Old 02-21-2019, 10:03 AM
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Carli 4.5" lift kit vs Full Traction Coilover kit

I am looking to do a lift system for my 05 Excursion 6.0 4x4.

I had an 02 7.3 4x4 previously that I put a lift kit on. BDS 6" front and rear leafs with FOX reservoir dual shocks up front and Fox reservoir shocks in the rear. 35x12.5x20 tires(Toyo AT II) on 20x10 wheels. It did transform the truck to make it more stable than the stock setup at highway speeds and also corner better. The ride was very harsh though. I didn't get blown around and it tracked straight while passing semi-trucks and windy conditions. I think the reason for the harsh ride compliance had to do with the Fox reservoir shocks. They were probably not valved right for the BDS kit, even though they were bought from BDS. Using 35x12.5x20 with 20x10 -24 I did have to trim the front bumper lower plastic and also the wheel well plastic. It would also rub the leaf at full turn even with a 6" lift.

So for my 05, I am looking to have a more compliant ride, but handle better. I want a stable ride at highway speeds. I want it to not have so much body roll during sweeping turns at highway speeds or get blown around in windy conditions or passing semi's on the highway. I want it to be compliant over bumps and road imperfections at speed and while cornering at speed. I want a low of lift as possible that will clear 35x12.5 x 20 tires again.

I am looking at the Carli 2.5 4.5" lift system with King's or do the Full Traction Coilover 4.5" lift with Kings.

The Carli 4.5" lift system seems to be a very high quality lift kit.
1 - Are the Deaver leafs they use that much better than Oem V/B leafs or BDS leafs?
2 - Are the King 2.5 reservoir pin tops that much better than the Fox 2.0's that would warrant a 300%+ increase in price for a road driven Excursion?
3 - Carli states that this system would make the the EX ride the way with a controlled compliant manner and handle the highway issues I have(excessive roll and sway at speed).
4 - Carli states their Excursion 4.5" system with leaf upgrade handles better than using the Carli F-250 Coilover system front(with stock 05 F250 axles) with their rear Excursion leaf setup.

The Full Traction 4.5" Coilover system with King shocks. Full tilt states that this will transform the handling characteristics and eliminate all the negative issues I have but provide a better compliant ride.
1. Will the front 4 link Coilover setup with Kings be that much better than a very high quality leaf spring setup.
2. I know there is a reason Ford went with 2-link Coilover on the F-250 for a reason in 2005. Will going with the Full Traction 4-link kit and setup be comparable or exceed the benefits the F-250 received in 05?
3. Ford probably did a lot of testing to make sure the 2-link Coilover setup worked properly. Would this Full Traction kit be of a high quality as replacing with stock 05 components to do a Coilover conversion?
4. Will use b mod leaf and 2.5 lift shackles with King shocks in rear as suggested by Full Traction.
5. Will use the RTLS system if needed at later date.
6. Or just go with the Full Traction 6" kit which included the rear leafs. Trying to stay below 6" though.

So if you had the choice of either suspension system which would you chose? I want to try to have the Excursion ride composed and handle best as possible. If I need to use smaller diameter tires and different suspension setup, that is an option also.

I could just go with a v/b mod springs or BDS 4"-6" kit, fox 2.0 or Bilstein 5100 and Hellwig sway bars. I will get a $4000 upgraded suspension setup that would eliminate most of my suspension/ handling issues. Is it worth double the cost to go with the Carli or Full Traction setup?

Does a 4-link Coilover really ride that much better and resolve some of the Excursion suspension downfalls?

 
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Old 02-21-2019, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by rufast View Post
I am looking to do a lift system for my 05 Excursion 6.0 4x4.

I had an 02 7.3 4x4 previously that I put a lift kit on. BDS 6" front and rear leafs with FOX reservoir dual shocks up front and Fox reservoir shocks in the rear. 35x12.5x20 tires(Toyo AT II) on 20x10 wheels. It did transform the truck to make it more stable than the stock setup at highway speeds and also corner better. The ride was very harsh though. I didn't get blown around and it tracked straight while passing semi-trucks and windy conditions. I think the reason for the harsh ride compliance had to do with the Fox reservoir shocks. They were probably not valved right for the BDS kit, even though they were bought from BDS. Using 35x12.5x20 with 20x10 -24 I did have to trim the front bumper lower plastic and also the wheel well plastic. It would also rub the leaf at full turn even with a 6" lift.

So for my 05, I am looking to have a more compliant ride, but handle better. I want a stable ride at highway speeds. I want it to not have so much body roll during sweeping turns at highway speeds or get blown around in windy conditions or passing semi's on the highway. I want it to be compliant over bumps and road imperfections at speed and while cornering at speed. I want a low of lift as possible that will clear 35x12.5 x 20 tires again.

I am looking at the Carli 2.5 4.5" lift system with King's or do the Full Traction Coilover 4.5" lift with Kings.

The Carli 4.5" lift system seems to be a very high quality lift kit.
1 - Are the Deaver leafs they use that much better than Oem V/B leafs or BDS leafs?
2 - Are the King 2.5 reservoir pin tops that much better than the Fox 2.0's that would warrant a 300%+ increase in price for a road driven Excursion?
3 - Carli states that this system would make the the EX ride the way with a controlled compliant manner and handle the highway issues I have(excessive roll and sway at speed).
4 - Carli states their Excursion 4.5" system with leaf upgrade handles better than using the Carli F-250 Coilover system front(with stock 05 F250 axles) with their rear Excursion leaf setup.

The Full Traction 4.5" Coilover system with King shocks. Full tilt states that this will transform the handling characteristics and eliminate all the negative issues I have but provide a better compliant ride.
1. Will the front 4 link Coilover setup with Kings be that much better than a very high quality leaf spring setup.
2. I know there is a reason Ford went with 2-link Coilover on the F-250 for a reason in 2005. Will going with the Full Traction 4-link kit and setup be comparable or exceed the benefits the F-250 received in 05?
3. Ford probably did a lot of testing to make sure the 2-link Coilover setup worked properly. Would this Full Traction kit be of a high quality as replacing with stock 05 components to do a Coilover conversion?
4. Will use b mod leaf and 2.5 lift shackles with King shocks in rear as suggested by Full Traction.
5. Will use the RTLS system if needed at later date.
6. Or just go with the Full Traction 6" kit which included the rear leafs. Trying to stay below 6" though.

So if you had the choice of either suspension system which would you chose? I want to try to have the Excursion ride composed and handle best as possible. If I need to use smaller diameter tires and different suspension setup, that is an option also.

I could just go with a v/b mod springs or BDS 4"-6" kit, fox 2.0 or Bilstein 5100 and Hellwig sway bars. I will get a $4000 upgraded suspension setup that would eliminate most of my suspension/ handling issues. Is it worth double the cost to go with the Carli or Full Traction setup?

Does a 4-link Coilover really ride that much better and resolve some of the Excursion suspension downfalls?

lots of good questions and rather then then answer them individually I can generalize and give you the answer.

your old and truck rode poorly because the shock valving was wrong.

king vrs Fox, Without getting down to some minute details I can assure you the only diffrence is the color. All the magic happens in the valving. Either one can be amazing or horrible depending on the valving.

deaver vrs BDS vs mod whatever springs..... get the spring rate correct is going to make more diffrence then who made the spring.... springs are just springs, Getting the spring rate correct is where the magic happens

leafs vs links..... links have the handeling advantage because the axle only cycles up and down where as springs move around in all directions, ride wise, Get the geometry correct and that is the better setup. A good leaf setup is better then a poor link setup. That said the full traction is the best engineered link kit on the market. ( I have built a stock link, , full traction and Fabtech ) Fwiw......stock ford link setup needs geometry corrected if lifted or expect death wobble and wander.

 
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Old 02-21-2019, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by pirate4x4_camo View Post



lots of good questions and rather then then answer them individually I can generalize and give you the answer.

your old and truck rode poorly because the shock valving was wrong.

king vrs Fox, Without getting down to some minute details I can assure you the only diffrence is the color. All the magic happens in the valving. Either one can be amazing or horrible depending on the valving.

deaver vrs BDS vs mod whatever springs..... get the spring rate correct is going to make more diffrence then who made the spring.... springs are just springs, Getting the spring rate correct is where the magic happens

leafs vs links..... links have the handeling advantage because the axle only cycles up and down where as springs move around in all directions, ride wise, Get the geometry correct and that is the better setup. A good leaf setup is better then a poor link setup. That said the full traction is the best engineered link kit on the market. ( I have built a stock link, , full traction and Fabtech ) Fwiw......stock ford link setup needs geometry corrected if lifted or expect death wobble and wander.

I figured that the valving was off on my old Fox reservoir shock setup. BDS was totally off on the valving.

So what's the correct spring rate for the Excursion for city/hwy driving , very limited lightweight towing?

What suspension setup do you currently run? That would probably give me an idea of what you prefer.

 
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Old 02-21-2019, 04:24 PM
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Factory spring rate on the Ex is 380 lbs in. Front and 410 lbs in. rear.

my Ex is 4 linked using a Fabtech axle bracket on the Dana 50 housing, I run a 2.5” x 10” coilover reservoir shock running a 350 lbs inch spring, using a set of 4” Air bumps for the stops. The rear is a 6” Deaver with 375 lbs inch spring rate, no blocks using a 2” remote reservoir shock and air bumps. Currently no sway bars. ( I have tried stock, hellwig and custom sway bars but ultimately it works better without, however I have a small front bar off a 2wd Ex I will try next ) Shocks are custom valved by one of the top gurus in the desert race scene.

ride height is 5” front 4” rear over stock or 28” from the center of the hub to the bottom of the fender arch.
 
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Old 02-21-2019, 04:34 PM
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37” tires on it for towing my 28 foot 9000 lb trailer. It squats about 2” and air bags would level it out but honestly not needed as it tows great, 2 finger steering down the highway in a cross wind being passed by semis. I don’t even run the bars on my weight distribution hitch.

best riding Ex I have ever been in and I have ridden in just about every diffrent suspension combo outthere.
it took me years of testing, trial and error with many diffrent combos to refine it to where it is today.
 
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Old 02-21-2019, 04:51 PM
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For a leaf build consider the procomp 22210 @430 lbs in.front and 22410 @375 lbs in. Rear leafs, no block. Ride height will be about 27” front back ( stock being 23” and 24” rear ) This will fit 35”s no problem and 40s with trimming.

shocks, off the shelf Fox or Kings are ok-ish but you really want them custom tuned., I would strongly consider Carli as booking one of the race guys is difficult if you are not a racer not to mention it is a PITA process. Carli has a great reputation for his tunes.
 
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Old 02-21-2019, 05:22 PM
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Great advice, thanks!

I am leaning towards the 4.5" Full Traction coil springs with King 2.5" reservoir shocks up front and 2" Deaver springs with King shocks in the rear.

Seems like you prefer a softer rear rate.

But then again, since Carli has done their testing, and have dialed in their Deaver leaf rates and properly valved King reservoir shock setup, that seems to be a good option.

Now to hurry up and decide since it takes 30 days to receive a set of Kings for the Full Traction kit. Probably the same with Carli.
 
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Old 02-21-2019, 05:57 PM
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General rule in suspension building/tuning is you use the lightest spring rate possible for the intended payload to set the preload of suspension at about 1/2 of its travel, Going by this rule it allows you to obtain the best ride possible because the more spring you have the more valving you need to control the springs frequency. More spring = more valving = poor ride.

so its not that I prefer a “softer rear rate” as much as it is the correct rate for my payload as a daily driver.

read Carli’s description, he does do the same thing.
https://carlisuspension.com/product/...rformance-2-5/

The rear springs are a reduced capacity spring pack (reduces payload/hauling capacity to a “light” ¾-ton). If capacity is a concern, the Full Progressive Leaf Springs can be supplemented back to the factory capacity with the addition of our Excursion specific Long-Travel Airbags.
 
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Old 02-21-2019, 06:04 PM
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Keep in mind, stock the Ex has 5” of travel so it only needs so sag 2.5” inch to be at 1/2 travel.
building a long travel setup with 10” of travel you want 4 to 5” of sag and to get that you use a lighter spring rate.

building a long travel suspension with a high spring rate would defeat the purpose as you would never use all the travel because the rate would be to high.
 
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Old 02-21-2019, 07:22 PM
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Invaluable input

Originally Posted by pirate4x4_camo View Post
For a leaf build consider the procomp 22210 @430 lbs in.front and 22410 @375 lbs in. Rear leafs, no block. Ride height will be about 27” front back ( stock being 23” and 24” rear ) This will fit 35”s no problem and 40s with trimming.

shocks, off the shelf Fox or Kings are ok-ish but you really want them custom tuned., I would strongly consider Carli as booking one of the race guys is difficult if you are not a racer not to mention it is a PITA process. Carli has a great reputation for his tunes.
Hey pirate, good input as always. I haven’t been frequenting this site a lot lately like I used to, I seem to usually visit when problems arise, no problems to speak of with my Ex. Aside from some vibration I am getting between 55-65 mph that I am attributing to some bad/loose tie rod ends, I replaced them 10k miles ago and should have splurged at that time for the Moog but cheaped out and went with lower end Orielly parts. I ordered all new tie rods from Moog and hope to have them replaced next week to eliminate the vibration.
Either way just wanted to say that when I replaced my rear leaf springs a while back I went with pro comp 22415 (5in lift) replacing the worn out stock spring the PO put a 4in block under to level it out and it made a big difference. I also ordered with the Moog components, new front leaf springs and went with pro comp 22410 as the old worn out superlift springs are shot and the bushings also blown out, hope this will make for a better “compliant” ride as the poster stated. I am currently running bilstein 2-4 in lift shocks front, bilstein 3-5 in lift shocks in the rear, but basically “off the shelf” valving. Which ride decent and no real complaints, will be curious to see the difference of a custom valved reservoir shock in the future. Baby steps. Also I am considering PMF rear lift (maybe 1 inch) block that are tapered 2.5 degrees per the recommendation of PMF the even out pinion angles, they also come with a air bag tang as I plan on rear air bags in the future, do you know much about them? TIA!
 
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Old 02-21-2019, 08:39 PM
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Yes PMF makes good stuff.

What are your front and rear hub to fender lip measurments ? Surprised you need a 1” block.
If you are adding the block just for the bump or air bag tang then just use their top plates, no block required
Airbag Tang Ubolt Top Plates

typically the rear spring requires a 2* wedge to correctly align the output shaft to the pinion shaft if you are not running a CV joint on one end of the drive shaft.

WFO makes good steel wedges available in several tapers
https://www.wfoconcepts.com/cr/3-Inc...hims/3225/4384

if you are adding air bags you do not need Carli’s $800 long travel bag, just use Daystars cradle with a standard bag.
Daystar? - Driven by Design
 
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Old 02-21-2019, 08:41 PM
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Oh and it’s doubtful a tie rod is causing a vibration, vibrations are typically caused by something that is rotating, 90% of the time it will be a wheel but in your case it is likely the driveshaft if you have not aligned your pinion to the output
 
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Old 02-21-2019, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by pirate4x4_camo View Post
Yes PMF makes good stuff.

What are your front and rear hub to fender lip measurments ? Surprised you need a 1” block.
If you are adding the block just for the bump or air bag tang then just use their top plates, no block required
Airbag Tang Ubolt Top Plates

typically the rear spring requires a 2* wedge to correctly align the output shaft to the pinion shaft if you are not running a CV joint on one end of the drive shaft.

WFO makes good steel wedges available in several tapers
https://www.wfoconcepts.com/cr/3-Inc...hims/3225/4384

if you are adding air bags you do not need Carli’s $800 long travel bag, just use Daystars cradle with a standard bag.
Daystar? - Driven by Design
I am away from the truck at the moment I can measure when I get off shift, but if I remember correctly rear is 27.5, front is 26? I was mostly going to use the block to A) correct and misaligned pinion angles. B) Have a mounting point for air bags. I am fairly certain I have a cv joint in the aft of the driveshaft.

I like the look of those wedges, simple design, affordable, I might have to get some 4* for the front for when I install the new leaf springs?

Also now that you mention it I hope it’s the **** poor tie rod ends that are making the vibration but I am not convinced that’s the case either. However the parts are ordered and I know the inner/outer are pretty loose and due for replacement. But I will say I did get new tires fairly recently ( General Grabber ATx 35. 12.5 r17) and I don’t recall having the vibration before getting the tires, but I do remember having a little vibration that I attributed to worn out Toyo’s. Vibration has seemingly gotten progressively worse, I did take the truck back to the shop to have them rebalanced and it did not help?
 
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Old 02-21-2019, 11:52 PM
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Step 1 confirm the type of ujoint setup on your drive shaft.

step 2. Measure your output and pinion angles and buy the correct shim to fix according to the type of driveshaft you have and your actual operating angles. Guessing or assuming is a poor way to try and fix something that needs to be accurate to within 1/2*

front caster angle and shims..... no guessing here, you need to take it and have an alignment shop put it on the rack for accurate measurments.
 
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Old 02-22-2019, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by pirate4x4_camo View Post
Step 1 confirm the type of ujoint setup on your drive shaft.

step 2. Measure your output and pinion angles and buy the correct shim to fix according to the type of driveshaft you have and your actual operating angles. Guessing or assuming is a poor way to try and fix something that needs to be accurate to within 1/2*

front caster angle and shims..... no guessing here, you need to take it and have an alignment shop put it on the rack for accurate measurments.
Copy that. I don’t want to step on the original posters toes so I will start a different thread, just came here to agree the pro comp springs are a great buy. If you want to anty up for the Deavers they are even better!
 

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