Carli 4.5" lift kit vs Full Traction Coilover kit - Page 2 - Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums

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Carli 4.5" lift kit vs Full Traction Coilover kit

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Carli 4.5" lift kit vs Full Traction Coilover kit

 
  #16  
Old 02-25-2019, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by pirate4x4_camo View Post
General rule in suspension building/tuning is you use the lightest spring rate possible for the intended payload to set the preload of suspension at about 1/2 of its travel, Going by this rule it allows you to obtain the best ride possible because the more spring you have the more valving you need to control the springs frequency. More spring = more valving = poor ride.

so its not that I prefer a “softer rear rate” as much as it is the correct rate for my payload as a daily driver.

read Carli’s description, he does do the same thing.
https://carlisuspension.com/product/...rformance-2-5/

The rear springs are a reduced capacity spring pack (reduces payload/hauling capacity to a “light” ¾-ton). If capacity is a concern, the Full Progressive Leaf Springs can be supplemented back to the factory capacity with the addition of our Excursion specific Long-Travel Airbags.
Pirate, in your opinion, is there any noticeable advantage in upgrading to longer '08+ rear leaf springs?
 
  #17  
Old 02-25-2019, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by RPhil View Post
Pirate, in your opinion, is there any noticeable advantage in upgrading to longer '08+ rear leaf springs?
advantage to the longer spring is more wheel travel possible, in the case of the 08+ they can get the increased travel while keeping the spring arch to a minimum. Calling it an “upgrade” is a stretch, you still have leaf springs and the associated handeling issues. You can get the same ride quality with the stock length springs.

Doing the swap is going to require either removing the rear climate control or completely rerouting the lines. Given the effort required I would consider a rear linked suspension setup,
 
  #18  
Old 02-26-2019, 01:51 PM
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I don't have any experience with the full traction kit, but I have been running the Carli kit on my 2002 excursion for a few months now. The ride is a vast improvement over stock and I have zero sway on the highway due to wind or passing semi's or cornering at speeds like stock.
Yes the deaver springs will be better than the V/B swap springs. The deaver springs have 10 leafs in the front that are staggered which allows for a more progressive spring rate which results in a smoother cycling suspension.
 
  #19  
Old 02-26-2019, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Ghostmoney87 View Post
. The deaver springs have 10 leafs in the front that are staggered which allows for a more progressive spring rate which results in a smoother cycling suspension.
People often confuse progressive length leafs with progressive spring rate.

The deavers uses progressive length leafs but the spring pack itself is a single rate spring.
put a pack in a test jig and graph the rate you will get a nice smooth curve, not a progressive rate.

 
  #20  
Old 02-26-2019, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by pirate4x4_camo View Post


People often confuse progressive length leafs with progressive spring rate.

The deavers uses progressive length leafs but the spring pack itself is a single rate spring.
put a pack in a test jig and graph the rate you will get a nice smooth curve, not a progressive rate.

So am I understanding this article incorrectly then? I took it as with the multiple leafs the rate increases as each leaf is compressed allowing for the softer ride
Leaf Springs 101: Talking With Deaver Suspension
 
  #21  
Old 02-26-2019, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Ghostmoney87 View Post
So am I understanding this article incorrectly then? I took it as with the multiple leafs the rate increases as each leaf is compressed allowing for the softer ride
Leaf Springs 101: Talking With Deaver Suspension
From the magazine article"
"The staggered leaf lengths allow us to get a much more progressive spring rate that increases as each leaf is engaged."

You understood what the Author wrote but I don't think Jake understood what Jeff was saying.


lets start with a the progressive length leafs of the stock rear excursion which is a Single Rate Spring pack
Just like the dealer the spring length gets progressively shorter, as the length of each leaf gets shorter its individual spring rate increases,
however when you build them all in a pack each spring is "engaged" constantly, so each spring contributes its individual spring rate to the sum of the pack.

this is from the actual Ford engineering Blueprint and spec of the Ex spring and the test graph. note the progressive leaf lengths and linear spring rate






 
  #22  
Old 02-26-2019, 04:34 PM
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now lets look at a progressive length leaf pack that also has a progressive spring rate


To achieve the secondary or progressive rate the main leaf pack does not engage the secondary leaf or leafs until part way through the suspension travel, when the main pack contacts or "engages" the secondary then those leafs contribute spring rate, hence the "progressive" spring rate.




 
  #23  
Old 02-26-2019, 05:07 PM
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This is 100% false.
See graph above. Nothing progressive about this packs spring rate, the packs rate is linear and a single rate,
it is however build from progressively shorther and therefore higher rate leafs.
 
  #24  
Old 02-26-2019, 06:08 PM
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Thanks for the explanations, so with the carli setup is the ride better only from them lowering the spring rate and putting more arch into the springs so with the weight it rides at the correct level?
 
  #25  
Old 02-26-2019, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Ghostmoney87 View Post
Thanks for the explanations, so with the carli setup is the ride better only from them lowering the spring rate and putting more arch into the springs so with the weight it rides at the correct level?

leaf springs do 2 things
1. Support a payload
2. Locate the axle

ride charteristics are largely determines by the shocks.


A shock absorbers job is to control the speed at which the leafs can cycle, without getting to technical about shaft speed and frequency hertz we can just say that the higher springs rate the more shock valving is required to control the leaf, More valving results is reduced ride quality.

The general rule in suspension tuning is to use as little spring rate as possible to support the desired payload so you can run as light as valving as possible to achieve the desired ride.


Bottom line is your Carli suspension owes its ride to the shock valving, you could swap in a pair of cheap procomp springs with the same spring rate and not be able to tell the diffrence in ride.
 
  #26  
Old 02-26-2019, 06:53 PM
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Some light reading for those that want some insight into dampeners.
http://www.kaztechnologies.com/wp-co...m-Kasprzak.pdf

for comparison sake I am tuned 350lbs inch front and 380lbs in rear with a 105 hertz.
 
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Old 02-26-2019, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by pirate4x4_camo View Post



leaf springs do 2 things
1. Support a payload
2. Locate the axle

ride charteristics are largely determines by the shocks.


A shock absorbers job is to control the speed at which the leafs can cycle, without getting to technical about shaft speed and frequency hertz we can just say that the higher springs rate the more shock valving is required to control the leaf, More valving results is reduced ride quality.

The general rule in suspension tuning is to use as little spring rate as possible to support the desired payload so you can run as light as valving as possible to achieve the desired ride.


Bottom line is your Carli suspension owes its ride to the shock valving, you could swap in a pair of cheap procomp springs with the same spring rate and not be able to tell the diffrence in ride.
I was referring to just the difference between the stock springs and the Deaver. You had made a comment about how carli lowered the spring rate in the rear to a light 3/4 ton. When I installed the lift I was surprised at how much arch the new springs had compared to stock. I was wondering if what Carli did was put more arch in the springs but lowered the spring rate so with the weight of the rig it would settle to only have 4.5” lift and ride softer compared to stock spring set.

Based on what you’re saying the OP would be better off to just do the V/B code swap and then install the king shocks though if all the springs are doing is supporting the vehicle and locating the axle.
 
  #28  
Old 02-26-2019, 10:13 PM
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Refer to my general rule above:

The general rule in suspension tuning is to use as little spring rate as possible to support the desired payload so you can run as light as valving as possible to achieve the desired ride.”

the stock Ex spring rate is too high, the V/B is even higher.

Stock is 380 lbs inch front and 410 lbs inch rear
V is 430 lbs inch , B 410lbs inch ( my calculation )
deavers are 325 front 350 rear

 
  #29  
Old 03-13-2019, 11:22 PM
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I’m seriously considering the Carli system for my 05 X primarily because I tow a 13k lb toy hauler and I must have air bags for that. Kelderman was also a consideration but cost is too high and the carli system would perform better off road. Did you install your carli system yourself? How was it? Anything I should know about the install that was difficult or any fab? Thanks!
 
  #30  
Old 03-14-2019, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by blampright View Post
I’m seriously considering the Carli system for my 05 X primarily because I tow a 13k lb toy hauler and I must have air bags for that. Kelderman was also a consideration but cost is too high and the carli system would perform better off road. Did you install your carli system yourself? How was it? Anything I should know about the install that was difficult or any fab? Thanks!
not sure who are asking about installing the Carli parts because nobody in this thread has said they have done it.
however Carli or otherwise it’s still the same basic excursion parts so install will be the same as any other install.

Read Carli’s description and they mention the rear upper shock mount is a weld in afair.

also, while air springs are ideal for towing just about any load I would not go as far as saying it is a “must” I’ve towed my 14k towhauler many miles without bags with a suspension that is longer travel then the Carli.

 

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