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460 swap done, now the dreaded starter issue

 
  #1  
Old 02-17-2019, 12:37 AM
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460 swap done, now the dreaded starter issue

Short version: Had the 360/NP435, swapped in 460 and kept NP435. Found a 400 bellhousing on eBay, bought the L&L flywheel/clutch kit and sourced the motor plate (or starter indexing plate) from Jeffís Bronco Graveyard. Another slightly relevant item is I put FItech fuel injection on it at the same time.

So so the first starter on the 460 was from the guy I bought the motor from and he ran a C6. It was acting up from the beginning and we knew something was wrong. L&L tech line claimed no difference between auto and manual trans starters but reading on here and on 460.com confirmed there was a difference. So under recommendation of another post I ordered a 9 tooth manual starter for a Ď70 Mercury Cyclone with a 429. I think.

That starter worked for about 5 seconds then if the truck didnít start quickly it would start binding up and struggling. We only had one successful start up, ran it for a few minutes, then shut it down and couldnít start it again. Acted like battery was weak or timing was retarded. Had it running long enough to set the timing and it was revving very well.

Next, bought a mini starter specifically for NP435 from Left Eye Blind. It will not even engage the flywheel. Canít get a hold of those guys to ask them any questions. FYI I bought my headers and motor mounts from them too. Couldnít use the mounts.

Next i I bought a fresh big *** motorcrsft battery and three 2/0 battery cables. Pos to solenoid, solenoid to starter and neg to the block. Installed Cyclone starter again and same result. Acts like itís binding up.

Been screwing with with this for MONTHS. Out of ideas. Took a picture of flywheel today and it doesnít look good after all these failed attempts. Got to be either the starter, flywheel or motor plate, right?
 
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Old 02-17-2019, 12:41 AM
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why didnt you just use a stock 460 bell flywheel and starter from the start?
 
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Old 02-17-2019, 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted by azul_grande View Post
Short version: Had the 360/NP435, swapped in 460 and kept NP435. Found a 400 bellhousing on eBay, bought the L&L flywheel/clutch kit and sourced the motor plate (or starter indexing plate) from Jeff’s Bronco Graveyard. Another slightly relevant item is I put FItech fuel injection on it at the same time.

So so the first starter on the 460 was from the guy I bought the motor from and he ran a C6. It was acting up from the beginning and we knew something was wrong.

L&L tech line claimed no difference between auto and manual trans starters but reading on here and on 460.com confirmed there was a difference. Uh huh, Who said that here?

So under recommendation of another post I ordered a 9 tooth manual starter for a ‘70 Mercury Cyclone with a 429. I think.
There's only one 429 starter, A/T or M/T makes no difference.

That starter worked for about 5 seconds then if the truck didn’t start quickly it would start binding up and struggling. We only had one successful start up, ran it for a few minutes, then shut it down and couldn’t start it again. Acted like battery was weak or timing was retarded. Had it running long enough to set the timing and it was revving very well.
There's only one 460 starter, A/T or M/T makes no difference. 1983 was the first year the 460 was available with a M/T
 
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Old 02-17-2019, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Skip1970 View Post
why didnt you just use a stock 460 bell flywheel and starter from the start?

honestly I wasn’t aware of a bellhousing that’s stock to both the 460 and NP435. I was under the impression that folks who have done this swap use a 351M/400 to NP435 bellhousing. Don’t think my trans ever came behind a 460.

Looking back i wish I’d rebuilt the 360 into a 390.

edit: thank you for taking the time to reply
 

Last edited by azul_grande; 02-17-2019 at 09:59 AM. Reason: politeness
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Old 02-17-2019, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by NumberDummy View Post
There's only one 460 starter, A/T or M/T makes no difference. 1983 was the first year the 460 was available with a M/T
Numberdummy, thanks for the quick reply. Iím trying to search for that old thread but canít find it. I must have posted on 460Ford.com Iíll look over there.

Hereís the starter I ordered. Rock auto shows different part numbers for a AT and MT.



 
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Old 02-17-2019, 09:42 AM
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Those starters from Rockauto are for a 302.
 
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Old 02-17-2019, 09:58 AM
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howdy DB429SCJ:

you may be right but i double checked my search and here's what i clicked on: Mercury, 1970, Cyclone, 7.0429cidV8, electrical, starter motor.

that's what came up. i bought the 25223 since it said manual trans.


thanks for the quick reply
 
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Old 02-17-2019, 10:14 AM
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FWIW I have a 1976 460 A/T, 1978 351M A/T, 1979 400 M/T--all use the same Ford starter. All have a 9 tooth drive. All use a 180T ring gear/flexplate. I try to use only the original Ford starters that came with the vehicle because aftermarket suppliers often have incorrect information/applications for their starters. I know they are cheap place to get a starter without the hassle of fixing your old one but after you have exchanged a Ford original what do you do when the new one "ain't quite right?". In my opinion it is better to take an original Ford starter to a good rebuild shop or rebuild it yourself. Understandably that isn't an option for you right now.

There is as much correct information as there is incorrect information about Ford starter applications on the internet. Add in the upgrade starters (like mini-starters) and these things can get confusing. Some Ford engines do have different starters for A/T & M/T. I believe this is common for the 240/300's & 302's. The best thing to do is rely on the original Ford part numbers because there can even be subtle differences from year to year. NumberDummy might want to chime in and correct my comments if I am off base--please do.

I want to do the same swap soon and have been doing similar research. I believe you are on the right track by spending the $$$ to by the correct L&L clutch/flywheel kit. I am assuming your bell housing is the cast iron one used from 1977-79 (I am being lazy and not looking up the casting number--I have one stored away in my shop).
 
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Old 02-17-2019, 10:32 AM
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Howdy Red Mercury:

This is very helpful and I agree. I'm hoping that I can just buy another starter that will work, that's the easiest, cheapest item to change. Yes sir the bell housing is a Ford cast bellhousing that came off of a 351M/400 M/T. Don't see how I could have the wrong bell housing since it's all bolted up on both sides.

I'm hoping I can get some more advise on what starter to buy and from where. For the LIFE of me I can't find the thread that I was on with the rockauto suggestion from last time. My laptop died last summer and with it was all of my bookmarks, usernames and passwords from the last 10+ years. I've spent the morning resetting passwords on this site, 460ford, thedieselstop,powerstroke.org. There must be one I'm missing that I posted on.

When all of this started I contacted L&L, as I bought my clutch kit, motor mounts, brackets, etc from them and they have been a wealth of information. Every post I've read about this swap says something to the effect of "if you pay the extra for the L&L clutch most problems will be eliminated". Maybe they were just referring to the pilot bearing issue, which was never a problem for me.

Suggestions? Ebay? Junkyard? This pickup has been 99% complete since about October. Really want to keep the NP435 in it. But I would have had it driving for months if it had an AT. Thx for the help.



Originally Posted by Red Mercury View Post
FWIW I have a 1976 460 A/T, 1978 351M A/T, 1979 400 M/T--all use the same Ford starter. All have a 9 tooth drive. All use a 180T ring gear/flexplate. I try to use only the original Ford starters that came with the vehicle because aftermarket suppliers often have incorrect information/applications for their starters. I know they are cheap place to get a starter without the hassle of fixing your old one but after you have exchanged a Ford original what do you do when the new one "ain't quite right?". In my opinion it is better to take an original Ford starter to a good rebuild shop or rebuild it yourself. Understandably that isn't an option for you right now.

There is as much correct information as there is incorrect information about Ford starter applications on the internet. Add in the upgrade starters (like mini-starters) and these things can get confusing. Some Ford engines do have different starters for A/T & M/T. I believe this is common for the 240/300's & 302's. The best thing to do is rely on the original Ford part numbers because there can even be subtle differences from year to year. NumberDummy might want to chime in and correct my comments if I am off base--please do.

I want to do the same swap soon and have been doing similar research. I believe you are on the right track by spending the $$$ to by the correct L&L clutch/flywheel kit. I am assuming your bell housing is the cast iron one used from 1977-79 (I am being lazy and not looking up the casting number--I have one stored away in my shop).
 
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Old 02-17-2019, 11:32 AM
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Make me think you have the wrong flywheel on it. from what I remember a FE flywheel will bolt up to 460 crank but will cause starter problems.
 
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Old 02-17-2019, 11:39 AM
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starters i've tried

Originally Posted by azul_grande View Post
Short version: Had the 360/NP435, swapped in 460 and kept NP435. Found a 400 bellhousing on eBay, bought the L&L flywheel/clutch kit and sourced the motor plate (or starter indexing plate) from Jeffís Bronco Graveyard. Another slightly relevant item is I put FItech fuel injection on it at the same time.

So so the first starter on the 460 was from the guy I bought the motor from and he ran a C6. It was acting up from the beginning and we knew something was wrong. L&L tech line claimed no difference between auto and manual trans starters but reading on here and on 460.com confirmed there was a difference. So under recommendation of another post I ordered a 9 tooth manual starter for a Ď70 Mercury Cyclone with a 429. I think.

That starter worked for about 5 seconds then if the truck didnít start quickly it would start binding up and struggling. We only had one successful start up, ran it for a few minutes, then shut it down and couldnít start it again. Acted like battery was weak or timing was retarded. Had it running long enough to set the timing and it was revving very well.

Next, bought a mini starter specifically for NP435 from Left Eye Blind. It will not even engage the flywheel. Canít get a hold of those guys to ask them any questions. FYI I bought my headers and motor mounts from them too. Couldnít use the mounts.

Next i I bought a fresh big *** motorcrsft battery and three 2/0 battery cables. Pos to solenoid, solenoid to starter and neg to the block. Installed Cyclone starter again and same result. Acts like itís binding up.

Been screwing with with this for MONTHS. Out of ideas. Took a picture of flywheel today and it doesnít look good after all these failed attempts. Got to be either the starter, flywheel or motor plate, right?


this is the MT starter (supposedly) from rockauto it has a 2" nose cone and 9 teeth and worked the best out of the three i tried but binds up quickly





this is the AT starter that came with the motor when i got it from a guy. it has a 2 1/4" nose cone and 10 teeth. it wouldn't work at all. made grinding noises when trying.




this is the MT starter from left eye blind. it won't even touch the flywheel. doesn't go out far enough to engage.
 
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Old 02-17-2019, 11:49 AM
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I went with a powermaster #9605,,,had to jump a lead on the selenoid,,,,L&L good stuff quality people,,,,,,keep us informed
 
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Old 02-17-2019, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by JP3 View Post
Make me think you have the wrong flywheel on it. from what I remember a FE flywheel will bolt up to 460 crank but will cause starter problems.

You may be right. I need to call L&L (again) and verify number of teeth. Here's what I ordered from them and what I believe to be in the truck:


what i ordered...
 
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Old 02-17-2019, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by lafermedavid View Post
I went with a powermaster #9605,,,had to jump a lead on the selenoid,,,,L&L good stuff quality people,,,,,,keep us informed

Great! If this will solve my problem I'll be happy to buy a 4th starter! Thank you for the info, found it on summit.
 
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Old 02-17-2019, 12:16 PM
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What year is your engine? The L&L kits says 78 & earlier. Not sure if that would make a difference.
 

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