1967 - 1972 F-100 & Larger F-Series Trucks Discuss the Bumpsides Ford Truck

2 bbl on Edelbrock 2105?

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  #16  
Old 03-01-2019, 11:20 AM
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I have both since the shop did a long block and said they won't put the stock intake on came in to pick it up there it was bolted on !!!! after that I wasn't going to spend 600 more on a intake and carb I already had the 350 cfm and bought the 500 cfm that's a great carb only with a AFR gauge and tuned right I'm getting 4/5 mpg on the fwy with it .
The power is great seems like the perfect cfm for all around driving but the big 50 cc A pump and straight to 500 cfm no secondary can't see how I can afford it anymore 1/2 tank to go 38/40 miles at 65 !!!!!! The 350 has decent power but no comparison to top end of the 500 although I could still spin the tires with the 350 pretty good but the rpm only goes up to 4000 or so
 
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Old 03-01-2019, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Freightrain
A smaller carb will sometimes run richer then a BIG carb. The strange thing is the size of the venturi's has a lot to do with it. The bigger the venturi, the less vacuum at the carb at slower speed=draws less gas.
It's probably more correct to say that a larger than optimum carburetor can actually run lean. Regardless though you're right, this is not intuitive. The venturi effect is what atomizes the fuel, if the carb bores are too big for given conditions the fuel is not atomized efficiently and drops out of suspension. Then the tuner is forced to try and compensate by making non-optimal changes to baseline jetting and other important adjustments. This is why carburetor specialists always say the most important "adjustment" one can make is choosing the correct carburetor in the first place.

The vacuum or air velocity is what draws the fuel from the well, that's why the correct ignition timing curve (and fuel height) is important, because ignition timing directly affects engine manifold vacuum and consequently the AFR. At idle very little air moves through the carburetor, so manifold vacuum is used in a special idle circuit. Much driving is done just off idle, so getting the ignition timing right first is crucial.

Usually too you'll hear that it's always necessary to jet up when a dual exhaust or headers are installed due to better breathing and exhaust scavenging. The answer to that is "maybe"; the only way to know for sure is to measure the AFR, every engine is different, the carburetor and especially manifold all play a role, compression ratio, etc. A higher velocity through carb may just pull more fuel regardless and make it a wash. A wideband O2 sensor is very interesting to use and really see how changing a single component, or an operating point, changes something else, not always the way one might think!
 
  #18  
Old 03-02-2019, 05:31 AM
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What is your cruise AFR? I'm wondering maybe a vacuum gauge might be useful. That likely has a 6.5 PV in it. Maybe needs a 5.5 to tighten it up and lean it out more at cruise speed to get you better mileage. Just thinking out loud.
 
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Old 03-02-2019, 06:09 AM
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Right, power valve should never be open at cruise. 4 to 5 mpg hwy? That's approaching the burn limit for gasoline most likely.
 
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Old 03-02-2019, 11:35 AM
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At least that's how estimated it on my fuel guage I always fill it around 1/4 tank it takes 15 gal from there to full came back at 1/2 tank went about 38/40 miles each line on gauge is about 5 gal it used 10 gal maybe 4 miles per gal , ......
I'm at about 13.84 crusie step on the gas a little it's at 14.11 green all the way I think it was a 74 idle and 6.5 power valve .I
played with it quite a bit only problem if I get down to 73/72 idle jet it might be 14.12 green on the gauge once you step on the gas it goes way up to 15/16/17 red lean due to the amnt of air the 500 cfm flows instantly the power valve is right on I went down to a 5.5 and it went lean to fast before the pv could catch up to the air flow 18/19 Red lean no matter what I don't think I will see more than 7 mpg on the fwy with this carb it's like running around with your secondaries open all the time and both accelerator pump on all the time.
50 cc pump just cruising around town and crusing on the fwy kinda like using both sides of a 4bbl to go to the grocery store circle trackers take the 50 cc off and put a 30 cc pump on do all kinds of mods to it I asked a guy who sells the modded 500 He was tight lip on the mods said if it's the 50 off put the 30cc pump on it will have stumble issues .
 
  #21  
Old 03-02-2019, 11:44 AM
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I did a plug change recently tried the NGK v power my autolite 45 were grey looked nice I expected oily black or saturated with gas but they looked good grey light brown no white / black / wet ....

Just a side note I have the 3:73 rears and c6 auto original 9.5 x 16.5 tire size I'm planing on trying some 295/75/16 Fatty's at least on the back ratio site says it will drop my rpm about 350 so instead of 2800 at 65 it will be about 2490/2500 every bit helps with the rolling brick ..
 
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Old 03-02-2019, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by SoCal69
about 13.84 cruise step on the gas a little it's at 14.11 green all the way I think it was a 74 idle and 6.5 power valve. I played with it quite a bit only problem if I get down to 73/72 idle jet it might be 14.12 green on the gauge once you step on the gas it goes way up to 15/16/17 red lean due to the amnt of air the 500 cfm flows instantly the power valve is right on

I went down to a 5.5 and it went lean to fast before the pv could catch up to the air flow 18/19 Red lean no matter what I don't think I will see more than 7 mpg on the fwy with this carb it's like running around with your secondaries open all the time and both accelerator pump on all the time. .
First thing make sure the distributor curve, mechanical and vacuum advance is squared away, and ignition has a fat, HOT spark. Can't tune the carburetor till that stuff is done and finalized. Next, are you tuning with a vacuum gauge? The numbers you mention aren't making any sense, it's way too rich at cruise and then, leaning out on power or acceleration. You need to use a higher # power valve if it is leaning out, not a lower one. Use stock heat range plugs, or a step cold, and stock power valve when starting with tuning.

It's important to know the steady level ground cruise manifold vacuum at 50 or 60 mph in high gear. Plumb the gauge into the cabin so you can read it. The idea is to choose a value that the PV is completely closed under steady level ground highway cruise conditions, regardless of speed, basically. If it's open, even a little bit, it will screw up finding the correct jet size. The correct PV for a given engine is based on both altitude and the average manifold vacuum of the engine. With a stock engine it's not difficult and a lot more forgiving than a performance camshaft.

When you are certain the ignition timing and fuel level in the carb is correct, the power valve is closed at cruise use the O2 sensor to get your jetting. Take it out on the highway and cruise at 60 mph on level ground and jet down. I run 15.5 to 16 AFR right in there. Look for evidence of "lean surge", you want to be just below that. There will be little to no load on the engine under this specific condition and the engine will tolerate leaner than "stoich" fuel mixtures without danger. This is where the vacuum advance comes into play, there will be a lot of ignition advance too, somewhere around 50° BTDC when the mechanical + vacuum advance is factored in.

Under power, under load, on acceleration, you cannot go lean or valves will burn. It has to be far richer than "stoich" in fact. I shoot for 12.5 AFR on acceleration. This is plenty rich and safe. Here's where it may be necessary to drill out the PVCRs ("power valve channel restrictors") after jetting is dialed in on a Holley type carburetor. The PVCRs are basically the two fixed jet size orifice under the power valve for the power circuit. Enlarging these with a pin vise just a couple thousandths will bring the AFR back to the rich side of things if necessary.

What you're doing here is "curving" the fuel supply for idle, cruise, power, and everything in between, sort of like curving a distributor. Remember the Power Valve just determines when extra fuel is provided, not really how much. It may be necessary to modify the power circuit slightly. But if the power valve # is too high it will enrich even at steady low load cruise, or maybe when driving into a stiff headwind, and bugger the AFR and waste impressive amounts of fuel. Can't get it with a truck, but lighter cars with V8 will smoke the tires and still get 25 mpg by carefully tailoring the fuel curve this way.

 
  #23  
Old 03-02-2019, 01:11 PM
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No not a vacum gauge it's a AFR meter see were you're running in the 15.5 16 area my gauge will be as red as a fire truck lol it's a good gauge with idiot lights on it too rich below 8 it goes red ....from 8 to 14.20 it's green anything over 14.20 to 21 it's red so I try to keep it in the perfect burn area 14 to 14.20 if I ran like you in 15.5/16 cruise it would stumble out or be lit up in the lean red area of the gauge especially at idle when I floor it I'm at 12.5 I used the base line to choose size of power valve by the idle vacum in gear if it's 12 vacum in gear divide it by 2 I use 6.5 pv say 10 then a 5 or 5.5 I don't know how you can run at 15.5/16 in cruise and not be too lean ????? It said in the kit that 14.2 or something is a perfect but ratio anything over 15 it's on the lean side I'm running a AEM gauge on the number 1 side of the exaust right at the back of header collector so I get all 4 cylinders in the reading it has lights on it .
 
  #24  
Old 03-02-2019, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by SoCal69
No not a vacum gauge it's a AFR meter see were you're running in the 15.5 16 area my gauge will be as red as a fire truck lol it's a good gauge with idiot lights on it too rich below 8 it goes red ....from 8 to 14.20 it's green anything over 14.20 to 21 it's red so I try to keep it in the perfect burn area 14 to 14.20 if I ran like you in 15.5/16 cruise it would stumble out or be lit up in the lean red area of the gauge especially at idle when I floor it I'm at 12.5 I used the base line to choose size of power valve by the idle vacum in gear if it's 12 vacum in gear divide it by 2 I use 6.5 pv say 10 then a 5 or 5.5 I don't know how you can run at 15.5/16 in cruise and not be too lean ????? It said in the kit that 14.2 or something is a perfect but ratio anything over 15 it's on the lean side I'm running a AEM gauge on the number 1 side of the exaust right at the back of header collector so I get all 4 cylinders in the reading it has lights on it .
OK, sounds like you got er all figgered out then. /jk

15 to 16 AFR should be no problem at level ground cruise if ignition is straight. Jet down on the highway till it squeeks and fatten up the low end as required to bring the AFR under acceleration/power into line.
 
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Old 03-02-2019, 04:48 PM
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No no way figured out I appreciate your input the gauge I'm using is a more advanced AEM AFR gauge not too much $ but it was in the mid 100 range it has a digital readout and lights all around it so if your too lean it lights up red to rich below say 8 on the gauge it lights up red and from 8 up to 14.20 or so it's green with the digital read out at the same time if I go over 14.20 it's red saying too lean .anyway I don't think people use the 500 cfm 2bbl for long as a daily I look at it with the 50 cc accelerator pump and the ability to go from idle to 500 cfm without secondaries it's like driving around with a 4bbl using both primary and secondary at the same time all the time . It needs alot of gas to compensate for that cfm or the mixture would be way to lean whether crusing , mid range or wide open screwing around with the 500 that's my view on it great carb for power if you like wot and smoking the tires but terrible to drive around town
 
  #26  
Old 03-02-2019, 07:37 PM
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Yes, I'm familiar with those. They are good. Fuel injection engines run 18+ AFR on the highway. That isn't possible with carbureted engines, the cylinder variance of the charge isn't consistent enough across all cylinders, And it's only as good as the leanest cylinder in any setup, EFI or Carburetor. Also the display indication is an average of only 4 cylinders out of 8.

My slick runs perfectly fine cruising at 15.5 to 16.2 or thereabouts at steady highway cruise. I just had to hog out the PVCRs slightly with a pin vise so the power and acceleration AFR didn't lean out too far at wide open throttle. I didn't really get that deep into it, some guys will get into enlarge the idle air bleeds and high speed air bleeds and all kinds of stuff like that. The engine will almost cruise on the idle circuit when everything is just so, is kind of what they are getting at.

But that's how a carbureted V8 from the 50s or 60s in a mid size car or hot rod can get 25 mpg hwy and still smoke the tires around town. The last highway run out of state was getting just over 16 mpg with good gas which I expect is about the limit with heavy pickup gearing and the brick-like aerodynamics. I've since upgraded the ignition a fair bit and may play with the timing a little more.
 
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